Quote from: Sommerjon;693757I want to play a warrior-type who can cast magic. <---plan
If I roll well enough I will be a human who dual classes, if I don't I'll be a half-elf fighter/MU. <---build

If you qualify to be a half elf F/MU.  

Exploderwizard, technically most d20 builds are not builds then because no prestige classes are guaranteed to be available in a given campaign as per the DMG. Hell, if you want to go deep enough, almost nothing is.

Quote from: vytzka;693823Exploderwizard, technically most d20 builds are not builds then because no prestige classes are guaranteed to be available in a given campaign as per the DMG. Hell, if you want to go deep enough, almost nothing is.

You can make builds out of just PHB options, such as the tripmaster fighter. As long as you are entitled to pick your stats, are guaranteed the abilities the classes provide, and the wealth by level per RAW you can build based on stats, class, race, and items.

Splat material adds to the power and number of builds. The structure of the RAW core provides the utility to make them.

Quote from: TristramEvans;693783I'm not talking about good/bad players, In talking about the difference between a system that has deliberate trap options for newbie players designed to punish them for not taking the 'right' doodads or special tricks vs a system that doesn't predetermine a character's viability based on how well they navigate the experience/rewards system.

You are missing my point. I will put it another way. "Trap option" are that way because they result in a gimped character for the most common situations the referee uses in his campaign.

The referee has a variety of options to as how to present his setting. Some unfortunately don't avail themselves of that and present what is essence a one-note campaign. Typically this resolves around combat as that the part of a RPG that usually grabs most gamer's attention and interest.

The best way for me to ensure I don't fall into a one-note trap is to remember to present slices of life within my settings. What this does is generate a variety of situations similar to what most of experience in our daily life. The increased variety means that different sets of skills or options come into play reducing the chances that any one's character choices results in a gimped character.

The player's responsibility is to remember that he is acting as a character WITHIN a setting. If he doesn't like the type of combats he is getting into then stop getting into them. Attempt something different. Find another way to achieve your goals.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;693827You can make builds out of just PHB options, such as the tripmaster fighter. As long as you are entitled to pick your stats, are guaranteed the abilities the classes provide, and the wealth by level per RAW you can build based on stats, class, race, and items.

Splat material adds to the power and number of builds. The structure of the RAW core provides the utility to make them.

That's dumb. So trip fighter is a build because it can be done with the PHB alone, but hulking hurler is not a build but something else because it can't? LOL.

Quote from: vytzka;693832That's dumb. So trip fighter is a build because it can be done with the PHB alone, but hulking hurler is not a build but something else because it can't? LOL.

Need context. What is a hulking hurler?

Quote from: jibbajibba;693798I agree with you.
But I don't think there are enough penalties in AD&D for, for example, wearing armour all the time. I know you have tried it yourself and it is a pain in the arse.

Yeah, Wearing armor all the time is pretty much one of the most common things handwaved away even in the detailed systems like GURPS. Even in LARPS, as uncomfortable as, it was we tried to wear our armor as much as we good because we didn't want to risk having our body pummeled to the ground.

Mmmm I think this instinct might a natural if you putting yourself at risk all the time. I recall reading that in Iraq and in the cities of Mexico that have drug cartel problem people have opted were body armor all the time.

Quote from: TristramEvans;693800Unfortunately the link to the original article is dead, so I can't compare what the blogger is trying to sell as the correct interpretation.

In my opinion, Justin's interpretation is correct. I've had this same argument with people over that essay, and many people have simply read what they wanted to into it, selectively quoting or ignoring portions of the article. By the way, here's the original.

Quote from: vytzka;693823Exploderwizard, technically most d20 builds are not builds then because no prestige classes are guaranteed to be available in a given campaign as per the DMG. Hell, if you want to go deep enough, almost nothing is.

Except that's not really the culture of 3.x D&D, and, as Exloderwizard mentioned, you can already make builds with the core rulebook. Now, I agree that excluding Prestige Classes helps, but as soon as any Prestige Class is included, anyone can choose the pre-requisites and take that class as part of their build.

The first major stumbling block that people like Summerjon are intentionally ignoring is that, when I sit down to make my character, but before stats are even generated, I can plan out my 3.x character from level 1 to 20. This is not possible in AD&D. This is often made worse by a bunch of cultural elements that sprang up around 3.x, things that I used to think were internet fables until some of them showed up at my own table. Magic item stores where anything could be purchased. Inclusion of any and all splat material. Player entitlement. Combined, these made the problem of builds in 3.x much, much worse.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;693827You can make builds out of just PHB options, such as the tripmaster fighter. As long as you are entitled to pick your stats, are guaranteed the abilities the classes provide, and the wealth by level per RAW you can build based on stats, class, race, and items.

Splat material adds to the power and number of builds. The structure of the RAW core provides the utility to make them.

W00T!  More qualifiers.:rolleyes:

Quote from: Bobloblah;693839Except that's not really the culture of 3.x D&D, and, as Exloderwizard mentioned, you can already make builds with the core rulebook. Now, I agree that excluding Prestige Classes helps, but as soon as any Prestige Class is included, anyone can choose the pre-requisites and take that class as part of their build.

Prestige Classes aren't the Devil.  If you have a concept for a character and a PrC fits that concept I see nothing wrong with taking the PrC, as long as the Dm allows that PrC.  The problem is most 3.x Dms are lazy and just allow everything then later bitch about their players.  Another problem is PrCs are not created equally, entry requirements are all over the board.

The biggest booboo of 3e was wanting the granularity of a skill based game while still keeping it a level based game.

Quote from: Bobloblah;693839The first major stumbling block that people like Sommerjon are intentionally ignoring is that, when I sit down to make my character, but before stats are even generated, I can plan out my 3.x character from level 1 to 20. This is not possible in AD&D. This is often made worse by a bunch of cultural elements that sprang up around 3.x, things that I used to think were internet fables until some of them showed up at my own table. Magic item stores where anything could be purchased. Inclusion of any and all splat material. Player entitlement. Combined, these made the problem of builds in 3.x much, much worse.

The hell it ain't.
Lets look at everyone's favorite; Fighter.  Since Fighters have dick(Freehold) in 1e builds beyond what armor and weapons to use I can really only make 'plans'
I've got 9 levels in order to get my shit together to establish my Freehold.
So my very first question to god is.  Do I have to build my freehold or can I take over another or be granted a hold or something along those lines?
If I have to build I am forced to save as much as I can, perhaps even having to take chances, with everyone's lives, for a greater monetary reward or perhaps having to be a bit underhanded or being more amoral, etc.
If I can take over another or be granted one I need to figure out which has the more likely success rate.
If god hasn't given it much thought then I will most likely not play
I do this before stats are even generated.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;693833Need context. What is a hulking hurler?

Quote from: Sommerjon;693871Prestige Classes aren't the Devil.  

To be fair, I think there were a few of those, in the Fiendish Codex books (not sure if it was I or II or both).

Quote from: Sommerjon;693871Lets look at everyone's favorite; Fighter.  Since Fighters have dick(Freehold) in 1e builds beyond what armor and weapons to use I can really only make 'plans'
I've got 9 levels in order to get my shit together to establish my Freehold.
So my very first question to god is.  Do I have to build my freehold or can I take over another or be granted a hold or something along those lines?
If I have to build I am forced to save as much as I can, perhaps even having to take chances, with everyone's lives, for a greater monetary reward or perhaps having to be a bit underhanded or being more amoral, etc.
If I can take over another or be granted one I need to figure out which has the more likely success rate.
If god hasn't given it much thought then I will most likely not play
I do this before stats are even generated.

Then you are in the immense minority because I have rarely seen players worry about these kinds of details so far in advance in an AD&D game starting at level 1. I have seen a lot more being worried about surviving to level 2! This is where the make up of the group, the equipment selected, and the like do factor in initial character generation decisions, for many groups (though not all of them). But really, rolling a character in AD&D is just that: it starts with rolling your stats, and then deciding what type of class/race you want to play. Then rolling your starting HPs and initial wealth (yes, you do roll those), then alignment, equipment, roll for initially known spells per DMG (you don't choose whatever the fuck you want) and you're pretty much done.

So instead of making ludicrous arguments that all things are equal and that CharOp is a "thing" nearly to the same extent from one game to the next, you could make actually salient points like "if you start at level 10 to run a one shot in the Tombs of Horrors, you can totally optimize the party in AD&D!" and that is correct, it is possible, depending on initial gear, whether the DM allows multiclassed/dual-classed characters, how the DM makes you select spells up to your level (could be done entirely randomly, semi-randomly, not randomly at all, or a mixture of all those) and so on. But nope, instead you are making false equivalences which to most people who are not you will come off as "lul wut?" Like what you just wrote here, for instance.

Quote from: Sommerjon;693871Prestige Classes aren't the Devil.  If you have a concept for a character and a PrC fits that concept I see nothing wrong with taking the PrC, as long as the Dm allows that PrC.  The problem is most 3.x Dms are lazy and just allow everything then later bitch about their players.  Another problem is PrCs are not created equally, entry requirements are all over the board.

No they are not. Having PrC's available to you just opens up more build options. Nothing more.

Quote from: Sommerjon;693871The hell it ain't.
Lets look at everyone's favorite; Fighter.  Since Fighters have dick(Freehold) in 1e builds beyond what armor and weapons to use I can really only make 'plans'
I've got 9 levels in order to get my shit together to establish my Freehold.
So my very first question to god is.  Do I have to build my freehold or can I take over another or be granted a hold or something along those lines?
If I have to build I am forced to save as much as I can, perhaps even having to take chances, with everyone's lives, for a greater monetary reward or perhaps having to be a bit underhanded or being more amoral, etc.
If I can take over another or be granted one I need to figure out which has the more likely success rate.
If god hasn't given it much thought then I will most likely not play
I do this before stats are even generated.

This is a wordy way to say you cannot really create 1E AD&D fighter builds.

I honestly don't get why people who like particular playstyles (robust tactical grid support, robust char op material, etc.) feel the need to argue that D&D has always been about those things. D&D has changed. Editions are different. If they weren't, TSR and WotC are the cleverest publishers in the world, because they've been selling the same game over and over again.

Quote from: Mistwell;693873

For context; don't fight Zeus, even if you are the Hulk.