Quote from: Sacrosanct;692618Seriously dude, if you can't even get the most basic of reading comprehension right, how in the fuck is anyone supposed to even have a discussion with you?

Listen, it's okay with me that min-maxers are getting their just desserts. I know that you really love it, so you don't have to deny it because someone points it out.

Quote from: mcbobbo;692616Genuine question - How is "gets thing every four levels" worse than "gets thing every four levels"?

In your 3/3/3 example, the next three level ups could ALL get the bonus.

What am I not seeing?

Not getting your first feat until level 10 is the problem.

Quote from: hamstertamer;692621Listen, it's okay with me that min-maxers are getting their just desserts. I know that you really love it, so you don't have to deny it because someone points it out.

You're officially off the rails dude.  This makes no sense whatsoever.  Perhaps you can construct another strawman to argue against, because you're sure as hell not arguing against things people have actually said.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;692622Not getting your first feat until level 10 is the problem.

Not when the trade off is getting a whole bunch of class abilities as a replacement.  I know this has been pointed out to you before, but I guess you're just here to troll anyway, by your own admission.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;692622Not getting your first feat until level 10 is the problem.

I'd think that not getting any feats until level 4 is an equal problem.

Many PCs never make it that far.

You really don't get anything comparable at level 1 any more?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692626Not when the trade off is getting a whole bunch of class abilities as a replacement.  I know this has been pointed out to you before, but I guess you're just here to troll anyway, by your own admission.

I'd be inclined to agree.

So which is true?

A) Do you get class abilities when you take a level 1 class?
and
B) Are those abilities roughly equivalent to a feat?

If so, then it seems there's not a 'genuine' issue here other than 'this is different'.

Again, I haven't ready any of the packets, and I really am asking.

Quote from: hamstertamer;692621Listen, it's okay with me that min-maxers are getting their just desserts. I know that you really love it, so you don't have to deny it because someone points it out.

What the hell are you smoking? How exactly is a class of people who by definition never take subpar options penalized by the inclusion of subpar options :?

Quote from: mcbobbo;692628So which is true?

A) Do you get class abilities when you take a level 1 class?

yes

Quoteand
B) Are those abilities roughly equivalent to a feat?
.

I think they are actually better.  Feats are nice, sure, and grant a few special abilities for each on mostly.  But let's look at it, shall we?

You can choose to gain an arcane feat, which allows you to cast 2 cantrips and one 1 level 1 spell per day.

or

you can take level 1 mage, get more than 2 cantrips, get more than 1 level 1 spell per day, and gain proficiencies.  and even then, you're only delaying the feat by one level.  If you want to replace the feat, you would essentially take 3 levels of mage, which would give you additional spells, arcane recovery, and a wizard school specialty.


You can choose to learn the great weapon feat, which gives you a choice of a -5 to hit for extra damage, and if you kill or score a crit, you get another attack.

or

you could take your 3 levels in fighter and get all of those proficiencies, second wind,  great weapon fighting style (you do damage even if you miss), a specialty, and get action surge.


So TCO is either trolling on purpose (most likely), or he's truly a complete idiot.

Quote from: mcbobbo;692628I'd think that not getting any feats until level 4 is an equal problem.

Many PCs never make it that far.

You really don't get anything comparable at level 1 any more?



I'd be inclined to agree.

So which is true?

A) Do you get class abilities when you take a level 1 class?
and
B) Are those abilities roughly equivalent to a feat?

If so, then it seems there's not a 'genuine' issue here other than 'this is different'.

Again, I haven't ready any of the packets, and I really am asking.

The answer to both A and B is yes.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;692646yes


I think they are actually better.  Feats are nice, sure, and grant a few special abilities for each on mostly.  But let's look at it, shall we?

You can choose to gain an arcane feat, which allows you to cast 2 cantrips and one 1 level 1 spell per day.

or

you can take level 1 mage, get more than 2 cantrips, get more than 1 level 1 spell per day, and gain proficiencies.  and even then, you're only delaying the feat by one level.  If you want to replace the feat, you would essentially take 3 levels of mage, which would give you additional spells, arcane recovery, and a wizard school specialty.


You can choose to learn the great weapon feat, which gives you a choice of a -5 to hit for extra damage, and if you kill or score a crit, you get another attack.

or

you could take your 3 levels in fighter and get all of those proficiencies, second wind,  great weapon fighting style (you do damage even if you miss), a specialty, and get action surge.


So TCO is either trolling on purpose (most likely), or he's truly a complete idiot.

People evaluating 5E multiclassing CharOp have basically decided almost unanimously that a 1-2 level dip in another class is almost universally the best choice. There are a few cases where deeper multiclassing is strong, generally combining a half-caster with a full caster to cheese the multiclass spellcasting rules. Outside of these two cases, multiclassing is generally a trap choice, as higher level class features and spells aren't worth giving up.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;692648People evaluating 5E multiclassing CharOp have basically decided almost unanimously that a 1-2 level dip in another class is almost universally the best choice. There are a few cases where deeper multiclassing is strong, generally combining a half-caster with a full caster to cheese the multiclass spellcasting rules. Outside of these two cases, multiclassing is generally a trap choice, as higher level class features and spells aren't worth giving up.

Dude.  It has been a day.  Who the fuck has done all the cross comparisons necessary to work that shit out?

Quote from: Old One Eye;692651Dude.  It has been a day.  Who the fuck has done all the cross comparisons necessary to work that shit out?

There's 5-10 people who have been crunching this shit all day. I'm not one of them, I'm just relaying what I've read.

Quote from: Old One Eye;692651Dude.  It has been a day.  Who the fuck has done all the cross comparisons necessary to work that shit out?

Do you know what's funnier than that?  Hours after the packet being released, people saying that they've played adventures already with dozens of various combinations that show how it's messed up.

Or minutes after it was released people saying that "here's a whole bunch of stuff that's broken."


Occam's Razor: internet jackass opens file, skims it, and then tries to add weight to their ranting by saying they've actually experienced it in play when they haven't done any such thing.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;692654There's 5-10 people who have been crunching this shit all day. I'm not one of them, I'm just relaying what I've read.

Guessing that the type of game played by someone who immediately started crunching to the exclusion of life's other activities is so far removed from the type of game that I would run that it makes the opinions of those 5-10 people completely irrelevant to my games.

Quote from: Old One Eye;692662Guessing that the type of game played by someone who immediately started crunching to the exclusion of life's other activities is so far removed from the type of game that I would run that it makes the opinions of those 5-10 people completely irrelevant to my games.

Until somebody you game with who has the internet builds a character using what they've read of those guys.

I haven't claimed any play of Next (and I don't expect to).  But I always fail to see how showing how something is 'broken' using an example that could easily be from play is somehow inferior to actually using something in play.  

Even the most robust playtest is unlikely to find every possible combination.  Min-maxers who are good at conceptualizing abuses do a great service by uncovering such things BEFORE release.  If designers respected their audience, they'd try to address those issues rather than blame the messengers.  

I like how Google pays hackers who find exploits in their code.  Min-maxers aren't even asking to get paid...  Game companies should take advantage of the free service being provided and look at fixes.  Especially in the internet age, these exploits will become common knowledge.

I like the proficiencies idea. Its simple and multipurpose and doesn't bloat up the rules with tons of little subsystems.

... Overall, I might actually start playing D&D again with Next, and 3.x and its crowd had really pushed me away from that and to other systems I liked better.