Quote from: jhkim;689635Words have meaning.  

I agree that a lot of D&D is about homeless wandering heroes killing monsters and collecting treasure, but the term "murder hobo" is pointlessly pejorative.

Its just a tongue in cheek description. Is the term hobo really negative in the US or something carires no such weight for me.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;689644Indeed. One suspects it might possibly have been so on purpose.



IMHO, I see nothing wrong with playing wandering adventurers who fight evil, kill it, and take treasure from its lair. That's the core of D&D — and most roleplaying games — and it's fun.

It's sneering of elitism to shit all over other people's fun. It's the quintessential incarnation of "you're doing it wrong" and such people can fuck right off.

Again I see no such implications.
So its a game of murder hobos no issue with that.

Wandering people, some heroes but a lot of villains, kill things and take their stuff then wander off. Murder hobos, what's the biggie?

Can you also play D&D with complex plots sure, you can play Game of Thrones D&D. Just becuase Game of thrones is the latest fantasy series of note doesn't mean that The Elf Stones of Shannara, The Belgariad, and all those other Questy Tolkien rip off novels were never written or weren't incredibly popular and you know what some of them are really great fun to read.

I know I played Murder Hobo games for years and when we got a bit more mature and wanted more depth, we still played Murder Hobos, except now with backstory plot hooks and a wider range of rewards.
In my current Strontium Dog game the PCs wander between planets searching for people and killing them for rewards. Murder/Bounty Hunter Hobo just about sums it up, doesn't mean there is no arc, no characterisation or some great and interesting settigns or antagonists.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;689626In D&D, we don't have to worry about moral relativism (orcs are evil) or those who believe the state should be responsible for apprehension and punishment of evildoers - the state doesn't have power in orc territory.  Adventurers have a special call to go out and kill bad people and take their stuff for justice.  Murder-Hoboism in that case is actually liberating.

We don't have to worry about about moral relativism because it's just a game, in the same way that the humongous popularity of considerably more murdery games like CoD doesn't reflect badly on the morals and personality of those who enjoy it. Some people just can't tell the difference between a game and reality, they're up there with MADD and those who think computer games will lead to everyone turning into rampaging psychopaths.

Quote from: Haffrung;689629And I can guarantee you the way I played would be far more recognizable to someone who started playing in 1980 and doesn't read RPG forums, than the dogmatic, revisionist stuff peddled by the OSR on forums today. OD&D stopped having any relevance to the way 90 per cent of people played from 1979 onward. At the peak of the game's popularity - long after OD&D was out of print - the game was a largely hack and slash affair. It's simple revisionist, OSR propaganda to pretend otherwise.

Honestly I'm not even all that clear on what this OSR thing is, but it does seem like some people are trying to gain cachet by invoking it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;689634Quite the contrary.  I have found it quite stimulating.

Indeed!

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;689644It's sneering of elitism to shit all over other people's fun. It's the quintessential incarnation of "you're doing it wrong" and such people can fuck right off.

Don't make me sig you again, man!

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;689644Indeed. One suspects it might possibly have been so on purpose.



IMHO, I see nothing wrong with playing wandering adventurers who fight evil, kill it, and take treasure from its lair. That's the core of D&D — and most roleplaying games — and it's fun.

It's sneering elitism to shit all over other people's fun. It's the quintessential incarnation of "you're doing it wrong" and such people can fuck right off.

Or it can be more than one thing.  

I played a certain way with some groups, other ways with others.  Played one way at age ten and eleven, and kept changing as I got older.
Some games were somewhat amoral, some were not.  I don't point fingers at others for having played with different people and who learned different ways.

Cash for EXP gave a player the option of avoiding a fight.  Most players I knew would still weigh it and try to play cleverly, with good tactics, but they still would fight given the opportunity.  I have had groups do otherwise.  There is a whole lot between hack and slash and avoiding combat.

I think Harfrung is right in the way a lot of people played, especially when younger.  But not because that was how the game was designed to be played; but how it spread, especially to the youngers.  Not bad or good, it is just what happened; different people played the game differently.  Its the beauty of the thing.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;689644It's sneering elitism to shit all over other people's fun. It's the quintessential incarnation of "you're doing it wrong" and such people can fuck right off.

Yeah, that's my view, too, agreed 100%.

My characters aren't hobos.

Quote from: One Horse Town;689814My characters aren't hobos.

True, no need to connect hobo charcaters with murderer charcaters.

One can easily be only one of the two.

Even my non-hobo characters spend a lot of time 'on the road'.  We've had some campaigns that largely took place within the confines of a single city, but more have involved travel to at least a handful of towns beyond our 'home base'.

My group of murderers used to be hobos, but they cleared a level of a local dungeon and now they have a home.  It's very convenient, as it provides easy access to their day-job, which is murdering monsters in the lower level of the same dungeon to acquire wealth.  

Joking aside, would people have called the Forty-Niners hunting for gold during the California Gold Rush "Hobos"? I wouldn't.  They used tents at night, and hunted for gold during the day - which is roughly similar to what a party of adventurers is doing.  




Similarly, some park rangers will roam the wilderness during the day looking for problems, and camp at night, as part of their profession.  They are also not hobos.  

And, many soldiers will roam during the day looking for the enemy, and camp at night.  Again, part of their profession.

I'd say when camping is part of your profession, like a gold miner or park ranger or a soldier, then you're not a hobo.  Adventurers are not homeless vagabonds, they're engaging in the profession of adventuring in a target-rich and treasure-rich region.

Quote from: Mistwell;689842My group of murderers used to be hobos, but they cleared a level of a local dungeon and now they have a home.  It's very convenient, as it provides easy access to their day-job, which is murdering monsters in the lower level of the same dungeon to acquire wealth.  

Joking aside, would people have called the Forty-Niners hunting for gold during the California Gold Rush "Hobos"? I wouldn't.  They used tents at night, and hunted for gold during the day - which is roughly similar to what a party of adventurers is doing.  




Similarly, some park rangers will roam the wilderness during the day looking for problems, and camp at night, as part of their profession.  They are also not hobos.  

And, many soldiers will roam during the day looking for the enemy, and camp at night.  Again, part of their profession.

I'd say when camping is part of your profession, like a gold miner or park ranger or a soldier, then you're not a hobo.  Adventurers are not homeless vagabonds, they're engaging in the profession of adventuring in a target-rich and treasure-rich region.

You must really get the shakes when you read the term "Grognard" on RPG forums Mistwell, as none of them actually served in Emperor Bonaparte's Old Guard.

Quote from: Rincewind1;689845You must really get the shakes when you read the term "Grognard" on RPG forums Mistwell, as none of them actually served in Emperor Bonaparte's Old Guard.

I'm explaining why some disagree with the term - you know, the topic at hand.  You can pretend I am taking the topic super-serious if you like, but given I started that post with a bit of a joke, and have frequently been pretty casual about this topic and not prone to take offense at the term, that would be a foolish inference on your part.

Quote from: Rincewind1;689845You must really get the shakes when you read the term "Grognard" on RPG forums Mistwell, as none of them actually served in Emperor Bonaparte's Old Guard.

You sure about that?

Quote from: Mistwell;689842Similarly, some park rangers will roam the wilderness during the day looking for problems, and camp at night, as part of their profession.  They are also not hobos.  

And, many soldiers will roam during the day looking for the enemy, and camp at night.  Again, part of their profession.

I'd say when camping is part of your profession, like a gold miner or park ranger or a soldier, then you're not a hobo.  Adventurers are not homeless vagabonds, they're engaging in the profession of adventuring in a target-rich and treasure-rich region.

I think using the term "hobo" is dumb in this context.  

However, that said, I think there is a big distinction of a PC who is away from their home for a while - and a PC who has no defined home to go back to.  For me, it makes a huge difference in how I see the mindset of a PC.

Quote from: CRKrueger;689858You sure about that?

Considering the last man who served in WW1 died I think a year ago, pretty sure . Even if we'd count Napoleon the 3rd's guard.

Serious cat is serious.

Quote from: Mistwell;689848I'm explaining why some disagree with the term - you know, the topic at hand.  You can pretend I am taking the topic super-serious if you like, but given I started that post with a bit of a joke, and have frequently been pretty casual about this topic and not prone to take offense at the term, that would be a foolish inference on your part.

Quote from: jhkim;689859For me, it makes a huge difference in how I see the mindset of a PC.

How do you feel about the hundred million odd people who have played CoD? Because I think the socially less aware have you outnumbered by just a smidgeon. I know I know, they are the proletariat masses waiting for their betters to hoist the flag and... oh forget it, you know what, it's just a game, stop reading so much into it.