Although there are a lot of things I'm actually liking in it, the one thing that has completely spun my head around and boggled it into oblivion is the new feats/abilities/skills rules.

Having no skills is bizarre enough, but then subsuming feat acquisition into ability bumps and not only that but having different bumps for different classes, is... I can't even put it into words.

Mind-bogglingly, head-spinningly, daft? Does that work?

Is it April?

Can I get my money back?

Will they see reason and fix it before I exorcist chunder?

Quote from: The_Rooster;676787Although there are a lot of things I'm actually liking in it, the one thing that has completely spun my head around and boggled it into oblivion is the new feats/abilities/skills rules.

Having no skills is bizarre enough,

Meh.  So you lost an extra d6 to four skills, but now have lore.  Not really a major change.  They were all at heart an ability check anyway,

Quotebut then subsuming feat acquisition into ability bumps

Wasn't that essentially always the rule, they just put it directly into the class charts instead of mentioning it in the feats section? Or is this that they took away the suite of feats?

Quoteand not only that but having different bumps for different classes, is... I can't even put it into words.

Not sure why this bothers you.  Different classes have different features.  Ability scores/feats are now more emphasized in some classes than others.  Seems normal to me.

Oh, and HI by the way.  Glad you took my advice and joined up.  I think you'll like it around here.

Quote from: Mistwell;676792Meh.  So you lost an extra d6 to four skills, but now have lore.

Four skills of my choice that don't have to have anything to do with knowledge. You now only get two Lore skills and MAYBE one from your class. Great, my character knows a lot about stuff he doesn't care about but can't sneak worth a damn because the DC's haven't changed but they've taken away a bunch of abilities which gave you advantage and/or one, sometimes even two, d6 rolls.

My sneaky rogue is now no longer sneaky. Thanks WotC.

Quote from: Mistwell;676792Wasn't that essentially always the rule, they just put it directly into the class charts instead of mentioning it in the feats section? Or is this that they took away the suite of feats?

You got both feats AND ability scores at set levels. Now you get a feat OR an ability score bump. On top of that, they've reduced the amount of feats and ability bumps for most classes, getting only 4 ability bumps across twenty levels instead of 5. With having to choose one or the other, and with DC's not having changed, and with ability score bumps being far and away the better choice for a character in terms of power, few people are going to even want to choose feats.

It's all in all a very terrible and very clumsy change. Yes, the feats are more powerful, but an ability bump is still better. And you don't even get a feat/ability bump now until 4th-level.

Quote from: Mistwell;676792Not sure why this bothers you.  Different classes have different features.  Ability scores/feats are now more emphasized in some classes than others.  Seems normal to me.

Most classes get 4 ability bumps OR feats, for a grand total of +8 potential ability score increases. The rogue gets six and the fighter gets seven. So a rogue can get +12 ability score increases and the fighter +14. Seems pretty whack to me.

Quote from: Mistwell;676792Oh, and HI by the way.  Glad you took my advice and joined up.  I think you'll like it around here.

Shutup and go miscalculate a production budget.

Quote from: The_Rooster;676800and with ability score bumps being far and away the better choice for a character in terms of power, few people are going to even want to choose feats.

This is where I noped out.

Quote from: The_Rooster;676800Four skills of my choice that don't have to have anything to do with knowledge. You now only get two Lore skills and MAYBE one from your class. Great, my character knows a lot about stuff he doesn't care about but can't sneak worth a damn because the DC's haven't changed but they've taken away a bunch of abilities which gave you advantage and/or one, sometimes even two, d6 rolls.

My sneaky rogue is now no longer sneaky. Thanks WotC.

?  Granted, I have only had a chance to briefly scan the new docs, but the rogue still has an expertise dice they use on every DEX related skill, that ranges from a d6 up to a d12.  There's also a stealthy feat that allows you to roll your expertise dice twice and take the highest.  That's not worse than the previous packet, so I'm having a hard time seeing where your complaint is.

And keep in mind that unless they changed it, your roll for stealth is essentially the DC for other creatures when they try to find you.  A 1st level thief with 18 dex can get a result of up to 30, with a minimum of 6, average of 18.  A DC 18 is pretty darn hard for most creatures to be able to find you, and that's when they are looking.  Seems pretty stealthy to me.

Quote from: Piestrio;676809This is where I noped out.

I don't know.  Looking at some of the feats, and I would rather take them than take the ability bonuses.  With the new design, each feat is more like a specialty, where you get more than one benefit.

For example, if you learn the Shield Master feat, you get:
* prof with all shields
* use shield as a weapon, doing 1d6 points of damage.  I imagine you would treat this as any other two-weapon fighting attack for the round you declared you're attacking with it.  It does not say you lose your AC bonus when using it as an attack, so I assume you keep it
* Add shield's AC bonus to any Dex saving throw vs. projectiles and spells that target only you.

That certainly seems worth more than a +1 ability score to two abilities IMO

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676813I don't know.  Looking at some of the feats, and I would rather take them than take the ability bonuses.  With the new design, each feat is more like a specialty, where you get more than one benefit.

For example, if you learn the Shield Master feat, you get:
* prof with all shields
* use shield as a weapon, doing 1d6 points of damage.  I imagine you would treat this as any other two-weapon fighting attack for the round you declared you're attacking with it.  It does not say you lose your AC bonus when using it as an attack, so I assume you keep it
* Add shield's AC bonus to any Dex saving throw vs. projectiles and spells that target only you.

That certainly seems worth more than a +1 ability score to two abilities IMO

Anytime someone starts talking about what is the "better" choice in an RPG my grogsence starts tingling and I get grumpy.

Quote from: Piestrio;676815Anytime someone starts talking about what is the "better" choice in an RPG my grogsence starts tingling and I get grumpy.

Well, I didn't use "objectively"



But seriously, I can see it going either way, honestly.  For me, I'd probably do a hybrid.  I.e., at level 4 for the first ability increase, I'd probably go with a feat that rounded out the theme of the character type I wanted.  Then probably go with ability bonuses from there on out when they occurred.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676813Granted, I have only had a chance to briefly scan the new docs, but the rogue still has an expertise dice they use on every DEX related skill, that ranges from a d6 up to a d12.

And what if I want my rogue to be charismatic or my mage to be sneaky?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676813There's also a stealthy feat that allows you to roll your expertise dice twice and take the highest.  That's not worse than the previous packet, so I'm having a hard time seeing where your complaint is.

A FEAT. You don't get to even choose a feat until 4th-level and then your choice is EITHER a feat OR a +2 to one ability score or +1 to two ability scores. The ability score bump is far and away the better choice. Game balance should always have the question, "Is this choice a no-brainer? If yes, it's unbalanced."

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676813And keep in mind that unless they changed it, your roll for stealth is essentially the DC for other creatures when they try to find you.  A 1st level thief with 18 dex can get a result of up to 30, with a minimum of 6, average of 18.  A DC 18 is pretty darn hard for most creatures to be able to find you, and that's when they are looking.  Seems pretty stealthy to me.

Firstly, you can't get a 1st-level character with a Dexterity of 18. The only way you can get an 18 at all is if you make a half-orc and start with 16 Strength.

Secondly, the average of a d20+d6+Maximum Dexterity is 17.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676813For example, if you learn the Shield Master feat, you get:
* prof with all shields
* use shield as a weapon, doing 1d6 points of damage.  I imagine you would treat this as any other two-weapon fighting attack for the round you declared you're attacking with it.  It does not say you lose your AC bonus when using it as an attack, so I assume you keep it
* Add shield's AC bonus to any Dex saving throw vs. projectiles and spells that target only you.

That certainly seems worth more than a +1 ability score to two abilities IMO

Any character that is likely to use a shield in this manner is already proficient in it. Losing the benefit of the shield and gaining a 1d6 damage bump is versatile but really, you're better off with a +2 stat bump to Strength. The same goes for the Dexterity. You're better getting a permanent +1 bonus to all Dexterity saving throws by upping Dex by 1 (if odd numbered) or 2.

Quote from: Piestrio;676815Anytime someone starts talking about what is the "better" choice in an RPG my grogsence starts tingling and I get grumpy.

You must be grumpy all the time then.

Quote from: Raven;676824You must be grumpy all the time then.

You have no idea.

Quote from: The_Rooster;676821And what if I want my rogue to be charismatic or my mage to be sneaky?


A FEAT. You don't get to even choose a feat until 4th-level and then your choice is EITHER a feat OR a +2 to one ability score or +1 to two ability scores. The ability score bump is far and away the better choice. Game balance should always have the question, "Is this choice a no-brainer? If yes, it's unbalanced."


Firstly, you can't get a 1st-level character with a Dexterity of 18. The only way you can get an 18 at all is if you make a half-orc and start with 16 Strength.

Secondly, the average of a d20+d6+Maximum Dexterity is 17.


Any character that is likely to use a shield in this manner is already proficient in it. Losing the benefit of the shield and gaining a 1d6 damage bump is versatile but really, you're better off with a +2 stat bump to Strength. The same goes for the Dexterity. You're better getting a permanent +1 bonus to all Dexterity saving throws by upping Dex by 1 (if odd numbered) or 2.

I'm on my tablet so forgive the lack of quote breaks.

I do recall seeing something for charisma for rogues.  Secondly, if you want a mage to be very competent doing something he probably hasn't hardly ever practiced (being a mage and all), tough shit.  Anyone can sneak, but if you want to be as good as a guy who does that as a living?  Then take a level in rogue.

no-brainer?  Maybe to you, a person who focuses only on +/- modifiers. And that shield was just an example.  There are plenty of other feats that look more appealing to me than a stat bump, depending on what sort of archetype I want to play

And where are you getting this "no ability can be an 18"?  Roll for your stats, there you go.

also, learn math.  10.5 + 3.5 + 4 (18dex) is 18

Quote from: Piestrio;676826You have no idea.

You must not like HERO System.

jg

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676831And where are you getting this "no ability can be an 18"?  Roll for your stats, there you go.

also, learn math.  10.5 + 3.5 + 4 (18dex) is 18

Only old grumpy people roll stats. Us hipsters use point-buy. Therefore, 17 is the highest, therefore, learn math, 17 is the highest.

So... nyah.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;676831no-brainer?  Maybe to you, a person who focuses only on +/- modifiers. And that shield was just an example.

The 1d6 damage from the shield is an extra 3.5 damage on average, while adding two points to Strength only provides an extra point of damage.  The frequency of Strength ability checks would vary wildly by play style, so that's a wash.  Carrying capacity is a constant bonus, in this case a rather minor extra 20lbs.

I would say the choice is something of a toss-up, entirely dependent on the type of play at a given table.  There is no obvious 'right' answer, although the shield feat has a slight advantage.  Which means WotC has at least a glimmer of game design skill left.

Quote from: James Gillen;676842You must not like HERO System.

jg

In Soviet HERO System, numbers crunch you!