Quote from: RPGPundit;670480(...) Its idea of "storytelling" is the GM (or worse, the published Metaplot) telling a pseudo-authorial tale where the players have no input and the Player Characters are often reduced to meaningless powerless witnesses or cheerleaders for pet NPCs doing great and important things.

Much like the intended way of playing Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye, actually. I don't think DSA/TDA ever claimed to *not* be a regular RPG, but quite a number of its players were just as convinced that their game was superior to others as I have seen with WoD fans.

Quote from: RPGPundit;670654Except that unlike in Trav, that's not usually how things play out in a WoD game.

Yes, that is true.  But maybe the V20 crowd will tend more towards this direction now that the era of the metaplot is over.  

Mage was a trickier case as the metaplot was the point of the game as written.  Even if enlightenment could only ever be personal, the dynamics of different visions of reality drew the players into the plot.  I've long wondered if there was a better way to set that game up.  And, unlike vampire, the reboot managed to just strip away flavor instead of creating new options.

Quote from: Votan;670796Mage was a trickier case as the metaplot was the point of the game as written.  Even if enlightenment could only ever be personal, the dynamics of different visions of reality drew the players into the plot.  I've long wondered if there was a better way to set that game up.  And, unlike vampire, the reboot managed to just strip away flavor instead of creating new options.

This reminds me of an episode of Kevin and Robin Talk About Stuff where they describe the old Mage as a "sophomoric multi-pantheon mish-mash" or something, and argue the new Mage is better (i.e. more playable) for being more coherent with a common root. I can see their point but frankly it's the system that hamstrung Mage, and that's the bit they didn't change much (I hear it's more rote-based).

I ran and played old Mage and never bothered with the Metaplot. I found it easy to use the basic premise to run a Grant Morrison style game (or alternatively, Indigo Prime). Mage basically says you're a Magick worker who uses their unique perspective to reshape the universe, and the Spheres are the lowest common denomenator of Magick that the Mage community can agree on. All of the other clans/conventions/silly hats are otherwise optional.

I treated the VtM metaplot with the same contempt but frankly it was US centric anyway, and at the time I was a poor student. I liked the 1e VtM books that happened while the metaplot was finding its feet, like Hunters Hunted.

OTOH, metaplot or not I saw a lot of VtM (and Cam UK) games degenerate into fanged supers. I think Mage did that less (well, until people started mixing them with Vampires and Werewolves) because it was relatively obscure and the disproportionately powerful abilities were less visible (q.v. VtM Celerity, etc). For VtM it's the nature of the game.

Quote from: smiorgan;670900This reminds me of an episode of Kevin and Robin Talk About Stuff where they describe the old Mage as a "sophomoric multi-pantheon mish-mash" or something, and argue the new Mage is better (i.e. more playable) for being more coherent with a common root. I can see their point but frankly it's the system that hamstrung Mage, and that's the bit they didn't change much (I hear it's more rote-based).

Yeah, I think old-mage was more new-agey 90s "eclectic". Which is to say, stupid.

Quote from: RPGPundit;671114Yeah, I think old-mage was more new-agey 90s "eclectic". Which is to say, stupid.

I loved oMage, but the main problem with the "Metaphysic(k) of Magic(k)" was that it postulates that a thing is real to the extent that more people believe it is real, and the reason science is more reliable than miracles is that science is simply the brand of reality-working that the Technocracy has conditioned the  Consensus to believe in.

The problem with that of course being that more people believe in religion, even primitive religion, than the basics of science, and sincerely believe that their religion trumps silly things like "fact".  For example, Third World peoples, Muslim fundamentalists, and the Republican Party.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;671467"Metaphysic(k) of Magic(k)"

Metaphysique. Of Magique.

Quote...it postulates that a thing is real to the extent that more people believe it is real, and the reason science is more reliable than miracles is that science is simply the brand of reality-working that the Technocracy has conditioned the  Consensus to believe in.

The problem with that of course being that more people believe in religion, even primitive religion, than the basics of science, and sincerely believe that their religion trumps silly things like "fact".  For example, Third World peoples, Muslim fundamentalists, and the Republican Party.

JG

True, although mechanically you need to separate out what people believe that affects the function of technology/physics, vs what people believe that has no bearing on technologY (e.g. which invisible entity they pray to).

• A lot of people "trust" technology in that if you do X, Y will happen.
• A minority of people understand science in the technocrat's paradigm, and can articulate why doing X will cause Y to happen.
• A few isolated people might have no idea that if you do X, Y will happen--but they don't have a contrary belief that if you do X, Y will definitely not happen. I don't think not understanding science is prohibitive.

Also I don't have a problem with inconsistent belief, it's an opportunity to have areas of "local faith" where the paradigm is subverted by consensus (giving rise to local superstition, legend, etc). But this balance of the paradigms in oMage is actually interesting and there's no real mechanical support for it.

Didn't Torg have some mechanic for making tech less likely to work in a magical paradigm, and vice versa? Something like that, maybe.

Quote from: smiorgan;671521Metaphysique. Of Magique.

In the French edition, yes.

QuoteTrue, although mechanically you need to separate out what people believe that affects the function of technology/physics, vs what people believe that has no bearing on technology (e.g. which invisible entity they pray to).

• A lot of people "trust" technology in that if you do X, Y will happen.
• A minority of people understand science in the technocrat's paradigm, and can articulate why doing X will cause Y to happen.
• A few isolated people might have no idea that if you do X, Y will happen--but they don't have a contrary belief that if you do X, Y will definitely not happen. I don't think not understanding science is prohibitive.

Also I don't have a problem with inconsistent belief, it's an opportunity to have areas of "local faith" where the paradigm is subverted by consensus (giving rise to local superstition, legend, etc). But this balance of the paradigms in oMage is actually interesting and there's no real mechanical support for it.

The problem isn't so much localism in the laws of reality but the idea that belief in itself will override facts.  Or as atheists say, "The nice thing about science is that it works whether you believe in it or not."

QuoteDidn't Torg have some mechanic for making tech less likely to work in a magical paradigm, and vice versa? Something like that, maybe.

It's not all or nothing, but depends upon both the reality's Axioms and World Laws.  For instance, Tharkhold has both cybertech and magic, and so does the Cyberpapacy, but the latter reality is based on an authoritarian medieval Church, and so it's possible for magic to have nasty effects like being swallowed by a demon or cause you to sink when tried by water.  

JG

I was stunned at how bad LA By Night was... ugh. I had pitched for that book but it had already been doled out to some guy (Noah Dudley) who apparently knew next to nothing about the city and its history.

Unfortunate too - since it was by canon supposed to be an Anarch "Free State" but populated it with such lunk-headed concepts and bad ideas that if the Camarilla or Sabbat *really* wanted to take over the city - they could do it in a single night with embarrassing ease.

In keeping LA "free" for me, having lived there for almost three decades, I simply riffed on the gang scene there. Clan was less important to me in terms of organization. Clan politics were rare except for Ventrue and Toreador anarchs - but certainly among dynastic rulers (as such) - among the gangs, Clan was incidental. So Brujah and Gangrel and Caitiff proliferated through south-central LA not by design or intent, but simply by force of individuals who gained power. Their progeny of course would proliferate that Clan - but loyalties were much more individual - not on the Clan level.

Crips and Bloods, Nortenos and Surenos, Mexican Mafia and a strong presence of Russian and Chinese Triads in their respective locales. I made LA a territorial nightmare where the Beach Cities were ruled by a pack of surfing kindred called the Soul Riders. The Crips and the Bloods were rival factions of mixed clans and caitiff ruling over their various mortal sets. Several lupine packs from Ojai and Malibu hills, roamed over the Hollywood hills, mounting attacks against the Wyrm-infested Hyperion Water-treatment plant that polluted the shit out of the ocean constantly.

Anarch Ventrue and Toreador watched the petty squabbles from their respective ivory towers (where they fought amongst themselves for control of the entertainment industry). They were all different with different goals and aims - but they were united against outsiders trying to move in (or so they thought - which was the premise of playing there). Of course I had other oddities there - a couple of Glasswalkers who worked for various causes. Setites aplenty (Venice Beach, Santa Monica) dabbled in several of the west-side gangs, specifically Shoreline Crips of Venice who . A Brujah that was the undisputed ruler of East LA - and had a veritable army of Surenos and Mexcan Mafia under his rule. He along with about a half-dozen warlords from other areas ruled through the acceptance of mutually assured destruction.

Together they attempted to make sure "business was usual" - which of course mimics the hypocrisy of their enemies. Of course - things were a LOT more "free" than normal. But ultimately it came down to perceptions of power and what one could reasonably get away with. I made it a Kindred jungle - where the fear of Diablerie was not just a societal fear, it was a nightmarish reality. The Law of the city was not that ones Elders garnered respect by dint of age, as in the Camarilla - it was respect by force. They justified the "freedom" enjoyed by the city simply (and obviously self-servingly) "the necessity for such atrocities is due to provide security against those that would enslave the Anarchs."

I made sure to give outsiders who weren't Anarchs received a very alien welcome in respect to the relative more structured Camarilla cities. But at the same time - I made it clear some things were available in LA one couldn't find elsewhere or at least easier to locate. LA was the Mos Eisley and Nal Hutta of my World of Darkness.

Major differences between mine and the "official book" - The power-strata for mine was more varied. The vast majority of the rank and file were high-generation for obvious reasons. But the "rulers" of the city were stacked hap-hazardly so due to the fact that they got to their respective low-generations (the lowest being around 7th - the majority were 9th-8th) via Diablerie invariably. The key for me was creating official Anarch traditions that allowed for immediate truces to the normal tribalistic cold-wars that were the norm, in order to deal with mutual threats from the outside... and invariably from the inside.

I also wrote up more precise regional breakdown on who owns what (think of a proto-version of the excellent Damnation City for LA) which essentially resembled the "Barony" system of official book - but I dispensed with the stupid name since there is no way an Anarch would use a title like that so close to a Camarilla title (despite the obvious feudal resemblance of control). The original author had *zero* knowledge of gang-culture, which at the time of his writing was pretty prevalent (it's changed a lot since then). His knowledge of the various sections of LA were fairly lacking altogether. So I filled out the major sections of city based: Beach Cities, South Central, East LA, Downtown, South Bay inner cities, Long Beach and Lomita, Naval Yards, LA Harbor, Hollywood, The Valley, Hollywood Hills, Santa Monica/Venice, Malibu, Pacific Palisades, Beverly Hills, Palos Verdes (ruled by Silverfangs - Off limits to *everyone*).

Cross-axis these locations with various industries that actually give the Anarchs some teeth. South Bay has its own airforce base. It's the hub for America's aerospace programs - Raytheon, Northrop, Honeywell, among others all base out there. Entertainment, Commuincations, Porn industry, sports industry - the sky is the limit.

Notables: Robin Leeland and his Merry Men. If there were singular feared "Elder" that is accepted there - it was the legendary Robin Hood. In my game - he was simply hiding from the Camarilla - he and his men (whose lineup has changed throughout the years - with only Will Scarlet and Little John, remaining, the rest long dead) were considered the best thieves in the world. The Macguffin was that he'd stolen something precious - (Etrius's journals) and knew the dirty truth of the Tremere. Gone were the bows and arrows (though Rob kept a souped up modern carbon-composite bow with a 200lbs pull and custom arrowheads for nostalgia) - they used state of the art .50cal sniper rifles among other such fare.

Also - there was a group of corrupted Nosferatu working with a pack of Black Spirals - who lived in a place called "Sunken City" - a WWII tunnel that ran from Riverside to the sea, large enough to drive tanks through.

blah blah blah - I had a lot of shit there that fleshed the city out in ways that piece of shit By Night Book never could...

You should seriously post all of your notes online. I'd definitely read them. It sounds pretty cool.

Quote from: James Gillen;671834It's not all or nothing, but depends upon both the reality's Axioms and World Laws.  For instance, Tharkhold has both cybertech and magic, and so does the Cyberpapacy, but the latter reality is based on an authoritarian medieval Church, and so it's possible for magic to have nasty effects like being swallowed by a demon or cause you to sink when tried by water.  

JG

Ah, thanks for that, I only ever glanced at Torg and never bought a copy. The approach sounds more pulpy but also a lot more workable.