Quote from: Piestrio;665616That's a huge assumption.

Pretty much.

In one campaign, we had 2 fighters in the party, i played one of them. The other fighter in the party had a better AC, higher strength and way more hit points than me. By the time we hit about 4th level it was obvious that he was a better fighter than me - so he got the riskier jobs, had to face the bigger enemies and hold the line, while i took out the mooks and henchmen. It worked really well. I had no problem IC in telling folk that he was the better fighter and didn't spend my time gnashing my teeth or anything.

IME you get something along those lines with most parties.

Quote from: One Horse Town;665622Pretty much.

In one campaign, we had 2 fighters in the party, i played one of them. The other fighter in the party had a better AC, higher strength and way more hit points than me. By the time we hit about 4th level it was obvious that he was a better fighter than me - so he got the riskier jobs, had to face the bigger enemies and hold the line, while i took out the mooks and henchmen. It worked really well. I had no problem IC in telling folk that he was the better fighter and didn't spend my time gnashing my teeth or anything.

IME you get something along those lines with most parties.

Yeah, dunno if it's MMOGisms (Tank, DPS, CC, Healing) or FPSisms, (Sniper, Rifle, Demo, etc) but modern fantasy games and the player mindset are set up more like a Spec-Ops team of hyperspecialized niches.  If you're not the best Tank, there's no need for you to Tank, etc.

Quote from: Piestrio;665604

QuotePlayer 1: My 3 STR fighter crawls out of a tavern.

Player 2: My Cleric gathers up his 37 holy symbols and follows him.

GM: Okay, a Dragon lands in the middle of the town and lays down. All the peasants (100) in the area drop prone in a circle around the dragon, grab rocks and throw them. Killing it.

Player 1 & 2: Yay! Here's my magic item list!

GM: Okay, the dragon has on it a level appropriate package of treasure and the items on your list.

Players 1 & 2: How fun!

I lol'd.

Quote from: Sommerjon;665304Knowing the Dm's likes and dislikes, knowing when to do something outrageous or sticking to the mundane, knowing your DM.  How to stroke the ego of the Dm is also system mastery.  People here who deny this is even possible are deluding themselves.

Its a shame you had such crappy GMs. I wish I could invite you to play in one of our games. I understand from this experience why people feel the need for systems to "protect" them from GMs. Unfortunately, its a job that requires a certain Solomon-esque type of personality, the best GMs being those who mix empathy and reason to tailor games to their players. GMs whose primary motivation isn't "facilitate the players having fun" rather than GMs who just want to have fun their way I think lead to the misconceoption of "system mastery". Really, its just "GM mastery", and I couldnt stand to kowtow to an egoist like that anyways, would rathe play videogames where at least I know the AI is against me.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;665615Here's the thing -
When something CAN happen, given enough chances, it WILL.  

If something happening really bothers the players, than that thing is a problem.

It's common for players to feel 'jealous'.  When the 18/63 STR fighter finds gauntlets that give someone 18/00 STR, and they give it to the Cleric with a 12 STR (but who has an 18 Wis and 15 Chr) it's totally possible that the Fighter will feel like a chump.  If he had put his 8 in STR instead of Charisma, he'd now be just as strong as he was, but he'd be a lot more successful when carousing.

Having gauntlets that grant +4 Strength neatly avoids that problem.  The Fighter would go to a 22 (super) or the Cleric would go to a 16 (good).  Either way, they both get the same relative benefit from the item.

Thats a very specific playstyle you're describing, not one I personally enjoy.

I've all but banished math from my games.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;665579IF SUCH ITEMS ACTUALLY EXIST and they HAVE A GOLD PIECE VALUE players WILL GET AHOLD OF THEM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!!!

y'know it might help to think of such threads (which are all over rpg.net) not as discussions of games, but as games unto themselves.

and the way you win is by having the BIGGEST OPINION backed up ('backed up') by the MOST AIRTIGHT LOGIC.

the way you lose is by reading the thread but that's ok

when these guys say shit like the above-quoted stuff they're in this mode where they're flailing around operatically saying the most ridiculous, least useful things -- i've gotten that way plenty -- because ego is on the line and nothing else, and it's not like they're all going to collaborate on Understanding People Together, because understanding people is the specific thing they're avoiding by spending so much time at rpg.net.

it's a 'safe space,' in the parlance of our times, for guys to talk about their dump stats.

trying to match up your own gaming experiences to, say, the rpg.net *mods'* experiences is impossible, because they don't go there to share re: games, they go there to peacock for other neuroatypicals.

same thing with PUA boards -- dudes go there to be with dudes and commiserate (in code) about whatever makes them sad, not to get better at talking to women. (the way you do that is by listening to women, duh.)

Quote from: stuffis;665638trying to match up your own gaming experiences to, say, the rpg.net *mods'* experiences is impossible, because they don't go there to share re: games, they go there to peacock for other neuroatypicals.

Quote from: stuffis;665638y'know it might help to think of such threads (which are all over rpg.net) not as discussions of games, but as games unto themselves.

and the way you win is by having the BIGGEST OPINION backed up ('backed up') by the MOST AIRTIGHT LOGIC.

that describes rpgnet back in the day. Nowadays its the most PC opinion that doesn't get the hyena pack upset so you're not disturbing their "emotional safespace" and licks the most Mod ass.

Logic left rpgnet, battered, bleeding, and raped, years ago.

Quote from: stuffis;665638trying to match up your own gaming experiences to, say, the rpg.net *mods'* experiences is impossible, because they don't go there to share re: games, they go there to peacock for other neuroatypicals.

well put.

Quote from: One Horse Town;665622Pretty much.

In one campaign, we had 2 fighters in the party, i played one of them. The other fighter in the party had a better AC, higher strength and way more hit points than me. By the time we hit about 4th level it was obvious that he was a better fighter than me - so he got the riskier jobs, had to face the bigger enemies and hold the line, while i took out the mooks and henchmen. It worked really well. I had no problem IC in telling folk that he was the better fighter and didn't spend my time gnashing my teeth or anything.

IME you get something along those lines with most parties.

The whole split treasure according to improving the overall party performace is just a favoured playstyle.
The party don't have to be goodly comrades they can totally be selfish mean spirited mercenaries out for themselves. In this case the fighter will grab the gauntletts if he finds themfirst and the other fighter might well feel a bit envious.
In one game being the backup fighter might be fine for your PC but in another your PC might hate the fact that  he is always second string. He might come to resent Big Ted the Bold until he finally snaps and poisons the big lad's ale and then claims all his stuff.
All about play style and roleplay right.

As for magic items I think gauntlets that make you as strong as an ogre (ie 18/00 Strength) and a belt that increases your strength by imbuing you with the spirit of the bear (ie +4 Strength) can both exist side by side in the same game. Both are different.

Quote from: One Horse Town;665622Pretty much.

In one campaign, we had 2 fighters in the party, i played one of them. The other fighter in the party had a better AC, higher strength and way more hit points than me. By the time we hit about 4th level it was obvious that he was a better fighter than me - so he got the riskier jobs, had to face the bigger enemies and hold the line, while i took out the mooks and henchmen. It worked really well. I had no problem IC in telling folk that he was the better fighter and didn't spend my time gnashing my teeth or anything.

IME you get something along those lines with most parties.

In my experience, some players are just fine with that, and others do not enjoy being the wimpy little brother to the stronger fighter.

Its only a problem if a player is unhappy.

Quote from: jibbajibba;665661The whole split treasure according to improving the overall party performace is just a favoured playstyle.
The party don't have to be goodly comrades they can totally be selfish mean spirited mercenaries out for themselves. In this case the fighter will grab the gauntletts if he finds themfirst and the other fighter might well feel a bit envious. .

In my experience, the other players aren't envious.  They're irritated.  If someone only cares about their character, even at the expense of the party, they are usually selfish assholes that are quickly asked not to return to the group.  Not one person at the table is more important to any other player, and will not have their selfish needs met if it bothers everyone else.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;665666In my experience, the other players aren't envious.  They're irritated.  If someone only cares about their character, even at the expense of the party, they are usually selfish assholes that are quickly asked not to return to the group.  Not one person at the table is more important to any other player, and will not have their selfish needs met if it bothers everyone else.

You are mixing players and PCs. I as a player might not care but Neflin Sandeman my NE fighter is an envious greedy little bastard.
If you don't straight jacket your players to only play goodly fellowes, which is a play style choice as I said, then you will occassionally get evil PCs who if they are actually being roleplayed at all will covet stuff.
I actually played Neflin Sandeman, a NE thief and he killed the party wizard and took all the parties magic items and fled, becoming an NPC and developed into the party's bette noir and major foe.

So I agree players shouldn;t be selfish but PCs...sure.

Quote from: jibbajibba;665667You are mixing players and PCs. I as a player might not care but Neflin Sandeman my NE fighter is an envious greedy little bastard.
If you don't straight jacket your players to only play goodly fellowes, which is a play style choice as I said, then you will occassionally get evil PCs who if they are actually being roleplayed at all will covet stuff.
I actually played Neflin Sandeman, a NE thief and he killed the party wizard and took all the parties magic items and fled, becoming an NPC and developed into the party's bette noir and major foe.

So I agree players shouldn;t be selfish but PCs...sure.

This just might be me, and I understand that, but in my experience, players who play evil characters more often than not do so only as an excuse for their own dickish behavior.  Only rarely have I seen players play an evil PC and not be super disruptive.  Largely because they realize that evil does not equal stupid, and that a strong party is better for him or her than a weak party where the evil character has all the good stuff.

However, that's the rarity, and it's far more common to play evil characters as you describe: screw everyone else, it's all about me and what I want.  Too often there's a lot of projection going there.

I'll also note that you said your character was a fighter, and then later a thief.

Quote from: jibbajibba;665667You are mixing players and PCs. I as a player might not care but Neflin Sandeman my NE fighter is an envious greedy little bastard.
If you don't straight jacket your players to only play goodly fellowes, which is a play style choice as I said, then you will occassionally get evil PCs who if they are actually being roleplayed at all will covet stuff.
I actually played Neflin Sandeman, a NE thief and he killed the party wizard and took all the parties magic items and fled, becoming an NPC and developed into the party's bette noir and major foe.

So I agree players shouldn;t be selfish but PCs...sure.

I've seen evil parties work, but they tend to work best in deadly environments where there's a strong impulse to cooperate enough to stay alive. One memorable campaign centered on the Caverns of Thracia saw a party of an evil halfling thief, an evil half-orc fighter/cleric, and a neutral cleric stick together just enough to stay alive, often lurching on the lip of disaster. The halfling pre-looted most of the treasure troves, and the half-orc ignored it until there was a juicy item he wanted and he just took it and defied anyone to try to stop him. Then the halfling got his hands on Thirster and the real fun started. The halfling loved having the sword, but the half-orc came to covet it. And Thirster wanted to be in the hands of the half-orc. There was evil deeds done during watch duty, and a growing atmosphere of paranoia. Eventually the half-orc ended up with Thirster, but the player of the halfling PC wasn't a dick about it. It helped that both players were socially functional adults and didn't let the in-game drama affect real-life behaviour at all.