Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;663532Good list. Just to nitpick and/or add to this.

*As for personality traits, Boot Hill has a 'Bravery' stat, and Call of Cthulhu has Sanity.

Arguably, any system that's ever given XP for roleplaying basically has rewarded 'disadvantages' much like theatrix/FATE, though less formally of course.

Boot hill Bravery isn't rerally a trait as it affects speed and accuracy so its realy just another stat as opposed to sanity or say willpower in WW

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;663532Good list. Just to nitpick and/or add to this.

*Champions (1981) was predated by Superhero 2044 (1977) for use of point-based character generation, and is said to be an influence on Champions.  Advantages as a thing must be at least that old, then.  
For 3E, I'd contend that  feats are really an evolution of proficiency systems in AD&D - Blind-Fight, Endurance, Two Weapon Style, Ambidexterity, weapon proficiencies and weapon specialization all existed as part of the proficiency system by 2nd Ed, but that's a bit of a side track.

*If you consider Runequest a universal system, that'd be 1978. (If you don't, I'm not sure what would count as the first universal system?).

*As for personality traits, Boot Hill has a 'Bravery' stat, and Call of Cthulhu has Sanity.

Arguably, any system that's ever given XP for roleplaying basically has rewarded 'disadvantages' much like theatrix/FATE, though less formally of course.

Fair enough - and to add a few more nitpicks of my own...

Point systems in general predate Superhero 2044 - Steve Jackson's Melee in 1977 was point buy, although possibly not a role-playing game.  Champions originated disadvantages for character points, though, as far as I know.  

I wouldn't consider Runequest to be a universal system.  I'd say the first universal system was Basic Roleplaying (1980), more fully expressed in Worlds of Wonder (1982).  

I think there's a pretty significant difference between Boot Hill's Bravery (which as far as I know is just a figured stat) and Pendragon traits.  Likewise, I think there's a clear distinction between broad, subjective XP for role-playing, and specifically getting points for a given trait or disad.

Quote from: jibbajibba;663537Boot hill Bravery isn't rerally a trait as it affects speed and accuracy so its realy just another stat as opposed to sanity or say willpower in WW

I can't believe I'm writing these words, but jj's correct.

Quote from: jhkim;663558Fair enough - and to add a few more nitpicks of my own...

Point systems in general predate Superhero 2044 - Steve Jackson's Melee in 1977 was point buy, although possibly not a role-playing game.  Champions originated disadvantages for character points, though, as far as I know.  

I wouldn't consider Runequest to be a universal system.  I'd say the first universal system was Basic Roleplaying (1980), more fully expressed in Worlds of Wonder (1982).  

I think there's a pretty significant difference between Boot Hill's Bravery (which as far as I know is just a figured stat) and Pendragon traits.  Likewise, I think there's a clear distinction between broad, subjective XP for role-playing, and specifically getting points for a given trait or disad.

Er...OK fair enough. You may be right about the disadvantages (just looking at Superhero 2044's rpg.net review, it doesn't mention anything like that). And the Bravery.

Re. RQ being unified mechanics, wasn't Worlds of Wonder just the same RQ game mechanics anyway?
(OK - I should note that, I haven't seen the very oldest versions of RQ (I just have the Avalon Hill medieval earth one with, IIRC, the red-haired chick on the cover, which is a fair bit later - so there could be some extra subsystems in the first edition I don't know about).

Quote from: jibbajibba;663065Post Old school innovation

James Bond - Hero Points, Degree of success based on Difficulty + skill Vs roll

James Bond inovated "hero points", but the difficulty + skill vs roll (compared to a giant chart) wasn't new.

QuoteHero - Point buy (?), generic rule set

GURPs (1986). Hero (1989) was a reaction to GURPs popularity. Before that, it was just a system used in various setting/genre-specific games.  

QuoteAmber - Auctioning of stats, diceless resolution

First published example, but diceless roleplaying had already been around since the late 70s.

QuoteWoD - Dice pools
 

Hahaha. No.

QuoteMore recent

Various 'Storygames' - introducing elements of narrative control

Really depends where one thinks "storygames" started, but definitely predates "WoD".

QuoteSavage worlds - fixed target number but larger dice size as you gain XP

The Window and Fable did this years beforehand.

Quote4e D&D - Advantage (apparently as a class skill for someone) to reduce numbers of Modifiers in combat

I don't understand what that means exactly.

Quote from: silva;663353Apocalypse World already had a abstract wealth system in 2010, so I dont think Torchbearer invented it.

Yeah, MSH had it in the 80s. Swordbearer too IIRC.

The concept of roles as abilitiies was introduced with Risus, no ? (or was it Over the Edge ?)

Quote from: silva;663801The concept of roles as abilitiies was introduced with Risus, no ? (or was it Over the Edge ?)

I'm pretty sure Over the Edge in 1992 predates Risus.

So I am losing count.  Are we basically saying that every mechanic has roots going to 1985 at the latest?  Any that don't?

Aside from mechanics, I consider the electronic alternative as the greatest influence on RPGs, by competition alone. Players stopped expecting to hear 'no' as an answer, and rules for interaction with absolutely everything started to appear.  There was also an onus to be fair, and that brought a sense of entitlement (good or bad).  Not sure what date to put on it, but 3e absolutely cemented the concept.  I know it wasn't there in 2e or Earthdawn or WoD, for example.

Quote from: mcbobbo;663832So I am losing count.  Are we basically saying that every mechanic has roots going to 1985 at the latest?

That's not too far from the truth I'd say. The underlying concepts of RPGs are not in any way complicated, so while variations do appear the basic ideas remain the same. Again it depends what you want to call a 'mechanic'.

Quote from: mcbobbo;663832So I am losing count.  Are we basically saying that every mechanic has roots going to 1985 at the latest?

Nope. Fate Aspects, Over the Edge roles as abilities, Amber auctions, Castle Falkenstein cards, Reign width and height, Apocalypse World GM never rolls and sucess at a cost, Wushu freeform narrative combat, Mountain Witch Trust points, Unknown Armies flip-flops, PTA episodic spotlight, Conflict-resolution, etc...

...are all innovations from the 90s to 00s.

Quote from: silva;664110. . . Dogs in the Vineyard gaming during char creation . . .

Traveller chargen, 1977.

Yup, I remembered that, and even took it out in my last edit.

Quote from: silva;664115Yup, I remembered that, and even took it out in my last edit.

Also Width and Height showed up first in Stoltz's earlier game "Godlike" (2003) just FYI.

Its fair to say that after the intial boom in RPGs a lot of future mechanical innovation has been to refine improve or simplify, much like everything else from computers to cars.

You get little ideas that are in effect nuances to existing, like Advantage in D&D Next. but its all refining ideas that have been arround for ages.

No suprise right? the first Electric car was built in Scotland in 1835 ... the Difference Engine was designed to work on principles the same as todays microchip computers etc etc .