Ultimately, I abandoned this alternate system from my OP as too complex.  For Lord of Olympus, I used a completely different concept of there being various types of magic that are each a different power.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Bird_of_Ill_Omen;629751So here's what I came up with [pdf file attached].  I appreciate the time anyone takes to look this over, and doubly appreciate the time anyone takes to offer feedback.

I actually like the fact that you used D&D-like spell categories, since my players have familiarity with those terms. I'll have to give it a playtest, but overall I like what you've done here. :-)

Yeah, that's an interesting combination.

RPGPundit

Overall, I tried to parallel the sorcery system with the C&A one, thinking a unified system would be clearer and easier to use, but I never managed to find something that satisfied me.

my heartbreaker uses something similar to this for one of its 4 types of magic.

Each Spell has an Element, a Vector (a verb in effect) and a Character (Adverb). Each of these has an ideogram inspired by astrology and all that.

But the spells inherit a difficulty as some components are easier to fit together than others. This makes the spell harder to use. There is a book of spells by well known mages that are the staple spells of the world and htere are conprehensive spell building rules either on the fly from raw mana or through research.

The idea came to me through the Alchemy android app and through magic symbols for the planets but then i recalled this and its really close and i pinched a couple of elements I missed

I just managed to find, not my old notes, but my unfinished tentative to clean them up :lol:

I required the ability to perceive magical energies (either through Logrus Sight or through a "mage sight" that costed 05 points), and then had the player choose a Domain, and a specialty, for 05 points per domain.

The domains were:
                     - Spirit (Commanding, Emotions, Intangible Spirits...): This is the magic that commands the minds. With it, you can coerce others, bind spirits...
                     - Elementalism (Fire, Water, Metal, Telekinesis...): This is the magic that shapes the world and control matter, from the classical 4 elements to more obscure forces, like magnetism or gravity. This also governs telekinesis, "force" fields...
                     - Life (Necromancy, Healing, Wounding, Puppetting...): This domain shapes organic matter, both living and dead. With it, you can heal, wound or control someone's motion directly. Note, however, that healing performed by this domain is shadow healing, powerless against wounds inflicted by a Real weapon, and that, unless backed up by a Real power (which requires Exalted Sorcery), any healing performed with it will fade through Shadow.
                     - Openings (Teleportation, Apportation, Ley Lines): This is the magic that creates portails through Shadow, and allows the shaping of magical conduits to transfer or siphon energy.

I had 4 components, noted from 0 to 8:
- Potency
- Range
- Duration
- Targets

A spell's was rated by (highest component)*(sum of the other components),  with both sides of the equation being at least equal to 01.
This limited the magnitude of spells one could cast.

I think if there is an area of Erick Wujick's design of Amber Diceless that required more attention, it was sorcery. (As exemplified by all these alternative and sub-systems GMs feel the need to concoct.)

I'm sure there is reasoning behind how he structured sorcery, I just wish I could talk to him face to face and find out what it was.

It seems there's a law of proximity with Amber Diceless. The closer you've been to Erick Wujick himself the more closely you adhere to the letter of what he laid out.

There must be some hidden wisdom in sorcery, as written, but I sure cannot find it.

//Panjumanju

"I think if there is an area of Erick Wujick's design of Amber Diceless that required more attention, it was sorcery. (As exemplified by all these alternative and sub-systems GMs feel the need to concoct.)

I'm sure there is reasoning behind how he structured sorcery, I just wish I could talk to him face to face and find out what it was.

It seems there's a law of proximity with Amber Diceless. The closer you've been to Erick Wujick himself the more closely you adhere to the letter of what he laid out.

There must be some hidden wisdom in sorcery, as written, but I sure cannot find it.

//Panjumanju"


I seem to remember years ago when I first attended Ambercons that the system did not get published the way it was first designed. It was broken up and became less than it was. But it has been a common agreement the system is lacking in my experience.

I prefer to keep it as simple as the other powers though to be honest my Sorcery and conjuration rules are almost twice my other powers explenations. They are just things that need more coverage but I try to keep it under control. Not that I always succeed. My rules are recognizable as ones taken from the game book though just I guess mre boundaries and expectations explained.

It is unfortunate that some powers got to see so little light of day compared to others. Giving them definition is difficult. Also that the person (Merlin) is such a dabbler in some of those arts that we only get his view of what sorcery could be.

But it order to run a game we have to set some rules and just go for it. It's been what Gm's have been doing since day one of gaming.

From how I understood it, the Sorcery system was really an afterthought on his part in terms of the design.

RPGPundit

This is a fantastic discussion with great ideas.  Thanks everybody!

So, I like this Promised Sands-inspired formula.  I am trying to make sure I have a good grasp of it so that I (or any player in my game) could come up with a spell idea, then sort of reverse-engineer it to fit it into this system.  The goal of course is to prioritize flavor and creativity, and back it up with game mechanics.  I came up with two example spells to practice this sort of process.

1) The first is a spell to make the caster (or another target) effectively turn ethereal for the purposes of passing through walls and the like.  Would this spell be possible in this system?  I am thinking maybe direction+shadow+duration+alter(+target if cast on another)?  The way it would work would be that it would be a very small radius from the target, affecting any shadow material (walls etc)  within an inch or a millimeter or whatever, and the alter word basically changes the wall into an immaterial structure as the caster/target passes through.  Does that work with this system?

2) The second would be the equivalent of a summon spell, summoning a creature to aid the caster in fighting, or perhaps some other task.  The issue is that there doesn't seem to be a word to pair with Create that could do this.  I can summon an element, but not a creature. So would a spell like this not work? It stands to reason that if one can create a gate to summon elements, then one could summon creatures.  Perhaps if the caster has some loyal wolves standing by in another shadow?
Or, if it won't work, could one possibly summon elemental beings to aid them?  It may require a lot of words .. if I want some magma elementals, then I use shadow+duration+create+magma+alter (to give them shape-magma wolves!) +life (could this word be used to actually instill life?) +mind (to bend them to my will), and maybe +magic just to tie it all together?

Am I in the ballpark here?  Or, should I stop trying to justify D&D spells?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Quote from: Panjumanju;636676I'm sure there is reasoning behind how he structured sorcery, I just wish I could talk to him face to face and find out what it was.

It's software.  Spells are structured as a small program with variables; there's a direct analogy between linchpins and run-time parameters passed to a command line.  This is the way Zelazny described it; Wujcik's implementation works well enough given the terseness of the source material.

Quote from: RPGPundit;637800From how I understood it, the Sorcery system was really an afterthought on his part in terms of the design.

Given that we only see Sorcery in Merlin's Chronicles, and Merlin's Chronicles were being written more-or-less at the same time as the ADRPG itself, this isn't surprising.

The real weakness in Sorcery is that it's obvious from Zelazny's other Amber stories that the mechanics of Sorcery are extremely personal to each individual Sorceror.  There's no reason for every Sorceror to use Sorcery the specific way Merlin does.

I suppose the answer to my "summon creatures" question is simply that the sorcerer would just need to have conjuration as well ...

How many words do you need to define 'troll who will fight for me'?

Are you instantly creating the troll out of shadowstuff? A real-in-this-shadow troll or a troll-shaped magical construct of some sort? With what capabilities?

Teleporting the troll in? From where? Instantaneous cross-shadow teleport of a pre-made or pre-enchanted troll? Instantaneous scan of hundreds or thousands of nearby shadows to find a suitable troll, instant enchantment of same and an instant apport to your position?

Or you just use the words 'loyal troll' and the multiverse's intelligent,  omniscient and omnipotent magical OS, or your personal super-Jinni, reads your mind and makes it so?

Quote from: RTrimmer;654917How many words do you need to define 'troll who will fight for me'?

Are you instantly creating the troll out of shadowstuff? A real-in-this-shadow troll or a troll-shaped magical construct of some sort? With what capabilities?

Teleporting the troll in? From where? Instantaneous cross-shadow teleport of a pre-made or pre-enchanted troll? Instantaneous scan of hundreds or thousands of nearby shadows to find a suitable troll, instant enchantment of same and an instant apport to your position?

Or you just use the words 'loyal troll' and the multiverse's intelligent,  omniscient and omnipotent magical OS, or your personal super-Jinni, reads your mind and makes it so?

So yeah the easiest way to do this would be to have a shadow of loyal trolls. then the spell
Opens gate to Shadow : Grab Troll: Drag Back
You need to find the shadow with the trolls (maybe a point item you can of course then populate woth all the other stuff you need like swords, armour, machine guns, tanks etc.)

The obvious end pint of the spell then is to have a standard teleport item from my personal shadow to me here. Then the only lynchpins you need are the Shadow you are in and the item you want.

You could abreviate it further by having certain summon spells for certain items. Or to bring you items into a certain shadow, say Amber.

The ultimate would be to bring you a set thing to a set shadow which would be an almost instaneous cast especially if it was hung in an intelligent item with which you could mentally communicate.