Quote from: talysman;653663That's probably true. But again, I think there's some instances of taking things out of context. I've seen many cases where someone asks for opinions in a thread, and other people will post comparisons or personal experiences, and a sensitive soul will take the negative statements as some kind of crusade ("edition warring".) It's not. It's just someone expressing an opinion. If someone is busting into threads that are about 4e only or 3e only to say that those aren't real D&D, that's disruptive. In another context, though, it's just expressing an opinion. If someone doesn't like it, they can express a contrary opinion.

As an aside, this is one of (many) problems with The Banning Place. They interpret all negative comments (about 4e or Pathfinder, at least,) as "edition warring". They have no concept of context. They also interpret all positive comments about OD&D or 1e as edition warring, and the mods have a tendency to start off the negative comments themselves and reprimand anyone who disagrees with them, but that's another kind of stupid...

Quote from: talysman;653574Thoughts?

Your whine sucks. Mine is better.

There once was a great DM. He ran our group through two of the most awesome Pathfinder campaigns, best I've played in for quite a while. Then, during a lull in gaming, he decided to get married. We never saw him again.

I ran into him at the used book store today and asked him how he was doing. He told me he was fine, the marriage was great and he had a son now who was two. I asked him if he was going to teach him about RPGs when he was older and he said no. When I asked him why he told me, "Well, I'm an adult now married and with a family so I have to give up gaming. My wife thinks its for the best."

One of the best DMs I ever had, pussy-whipped into giving up RPGs.

Quote from: jeff37923;653684One of the best DMs I ever had, pussy-whipped into giving up RPGs.

Or he simply prefers the company of his wife to that of a bunch of geeky guys, and is too polite to say so, so he relies on one of the most stale stereotypes there is, ever had been, or ever will be, secure in the knowledge that it will never be questioned by a bunch of geeky gamer guys.

Quote from: taustin;653686Or he simply prefers the company of his wife to that of a bunch of geeky guys, and is too polite to say so, so he relies on one of the most stale stereotypes there is, ever had been, or ever will be, secure in the knowledge that it will never be questioned by a bunch of geeky gamer guys.

"Many women are quick to complain about their boring husbands after they are done moulding them into their image of a perfect man."

So the take-away for the umpteenth time for these kinds of threads is: walk on eggshells v. grow a thicker skin.

Well that was a fun topic revisit. Next!

Quote from: Reckall;653661To sum it up, you had a discussion about The Gaming Den.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Reckall;653661To sum it up, you had a discussion about The Gaming Den.

I see what you did there.

People complain about the RPGs for a lot of reasons. But the one that sticks out for me - and it may be what you're referring to here - are the D&D math wonks.
They want to D&D to be a fine-tuned model of mathematical beauty. To them, the game should be built from the ground up based on PC balance and scaling. If a 5th level Wizard does 15 per cent more DPS than a 5th level Rogue, then the designers are blithering dolts and the game is utterly broken. This group also tends to overlap with the char op group, who want lots of customizable PC options to build their awesome PCs. They resolutely and relentlessly try to break the game, and then they complain that it's broken.

The math wonk crowd found their edition in 4E. It wasn't perfection, but it was the closest an edition of D&D had come to their ideal of a balanced, analytical tactical skirmish game. D&D Next has sent them into apoplexy, not only because it means their favourite edition isn't being supported anymore, but because it doesn't look as though the math will be as uniform and transparent as it was in 4E.

As for why they don't play another game, WotC have always tried to appeal to these players - call them the Magic the Gathering generation. It's just that D&D is a heck of a lot tougher to balance than a lot of other games, and if you go too far with the symmetrical math, you get a game like 4E, that alienates a lot of players who enjoy different aspects of D&D and find a math-forward system unappealing.

And then we need to question how much of this stuff is simply forum fodder. Do players at the table in the real world complain endlessly about quadratic wizards and linear fighters? Maybe some. But I'm betting not nearly as much as you see on forums. Debating (and complaining about) the math of D&D is a sub-hobby in and of itself.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;653575However, the problem with most of the 4vengers is not that they whine about everything.  Quite the contrary, they whine about everything BUT 4e, which is the greatest thing ever and if you like anything else, you're engaging in badwrong fun.

Indeed, quite 100% true and agreed. They treat 4e as Holy Writ. Just check this used-to-be-decent forum wherein you'll get sanctioned for criticizing 4e while taking a big crap all over other editions is 110% hunky-dory. BleaRGH.

I've come to think of 4e as "D&D: Bitch Edition" due to these people. Dear GAWD what a bunch of whining bitches...

Quote from: The Ent;654351Indeed, quite 100% true and agreed. They treat 4e as Holy Writ. Just check this used-to-be-decent forum wherein you'll get sanctioned for criticizing 4e while taking a big crap all over other editions is 110% hunky-dory. BleaRGH.

I've come to think of 4e as "D&D: Bitch Edition" due to these people. Dear GAWD what a bunch of whining bitches...

Yeah, well, it sucks if you actually hate everything about D&D and the only edition you liked is getting thrown into the garbage bin.

I'm not being especially sympathetic, but I understand them.

Quote from: vytzka;654355Yeah, well, it sucks if you actually hate everything about D&D and the only edition you liked is getting thrown into the garbage bin.

:rotfl:

Yeah, I get that. "Oh noes the D&D ed for D&D-haters is getting ganked!!!"

Quote from: Haffrung;653780As for why they don't play another game, WotC have always tried to appeal to these players - call them the Magic the Gathering generation.

I don't know, I'd probably call them the MMO gang to be honest, that charop stuff and character building, maths crunching etc is lifted directly from WoW and its ilk.

This culminated in the bizarre spectacle of posters like Mr GC and presumably others who appeared to be unable to comprehend RPGs outside of MMO tinted glasses. I think he started out with MMOs and then moved to tabletop RPGs confident that the online experience would give him the edge. But instead he wound up talking greek, most of what he was saying made no sense whatsoever in the context of TTRPGs. Not that it was wrong, it literally was nonsensical unless you mentally changed tracks and imagined he was talking about an MMO. Then it made perfect sense.

Quote from: The Traveller;654362I don't know, I'd probably call them the MMO gang to be honest, that charop stuff and character building, maths crunching etc is lifted directly from WoW and its ilk.

This culminated in the bizarre spectacle of posters like Mr GC and presumably others who appeared to be unable to comprehend RPGs outside of MMO tinted glasses. I think he started out with MMOs and then moved to tabletop RPGs confident that the online experience would give him the edge. But instead he wound up talking greek, most of what he was saying made no sense whatsoever in the context of TTRPGs. Not that it was wrong, it literally was nonsensical unless you mentally changed tracks and imagined he was talking about an MMO. Then it made perfect sense.

If it makes you feel better, GC didn't have a much more successful career at the Den either.

Quote from: vytzka;654365If it makes you feel better, GC didn't have a much more successful career at the Den either.

Didn't make me feel bad in the first place, just a mild sense of... O_o when I figured out what was going on. However while he's an extreme example I feel with a good degree of certainty that MMOs are where much of the charop and build sentiment comes from.

Quote from: talysman;653574No, I suspect something else. In particular, with regards to D&D, I suggested on G+ that most of the whiners have been the same people, across multiple editions. They have always played whatever the most recent edition is, and they have always whined. They whine and whine until a new edition comes out, they switch to that, and they keep whining. They are never satisfied.

....

Thoughts?

I've read everyone else's comments, too, but basically I think it's fair to say that you're somewhere between most wrong and completely wrong.

First, it's important to acknowledge that if you are a player of RPGs, there are a limited number of people with which you will be able to play.  This might be a result of Geography (in a 'live game' only people who can get to the game are potential players), but among the possible players, it will get winnowed down further.  

If you play Warhammer 1st edition, but someone else plays Warhammer 2nd edition, and neither of you are willing to compromise, you're not going to be able to play together.  

If you have thoughts on which edition is 'the best' or what game you'd prefer to play, you have a vested interest in increasing the player base for that game.  Not only does it make it easier for you to find a group, it also increases the amount of product support available to you.

A game that has 100 players (spread around the world) is only going to get the support from the developer that is truly 'labor of love'.  A game that has the support of 10 million players around the world will be more likely to provide 'niche' products - a setting on Elizabethean England or Tripoli Pirates might only appeal to a small segment of the player base, but with enough players, that might be enough to justify the development and production costs.

So, from a purely selfish point of view, if you have a preferred edition, having more players play that version is 'for the best'.  The more you like variety and you value having multiple different systems with different quirks, etc, the less this will apply.  But considering the investment of time involved in learning a new system, there is definitely a bias against experimentation.  

So, once you establish that you have a preferred edition (or an edition that has such broad support that it is really the only option available to you), that doesn't mean you have to accept it's perfect.  Most products can be improved.  RPGs aren't like cars where the 'technology' advances and needs to be incorporated into the latest models - but even outside of blue tooth and GPS, there are improvements that can make the car work better.  Most people would agree that key ignition is better than hand-cranking the car to start; automatic transmission is easier to drive than manual.  In an RPG, streamlining and simplifying the rules but maintaining or improving performance is desireable.  Resolving an action in 5 seconds with the same level of granularity is better than resolving the same action in 45 seconds.

So, if you have a preferred edition, and you identify ways the game could be 'better' (which is admittedly subjective), you have a vested interest in communicating that improvement to the designers and the players.  It's possible that you could just communicate it to your group, but the more your group differs from the 'base', the less value additional supplments have for you.  

For example, if you completely change the way clerics and clerical magic work in your D&D game, any published adventure that presumes a cleric opponent will require modification.  Any source book that focuses or includes clerics as members of religious hierarchy with specific required abilities requires changing...  

So, ultimately, having more people play the same game you play in the same way you play it is best for you personally.  There's nothing wrong with advocating for your preferred game and/or style.  Now, obviously, if your preferred style differs, you have a vested interest in stopping others from 'winning converts'.  That's what this is all about.  

Some people are happy with the status quo; some people would prefer changes to the game in one way, and others would prefer changes to the game another way.  I liked 3.x, but I wanted to see some serious improvements.  4th edition didn't 'fix' anything that I had a problem with and instead created totally new problems (I don't play that edition).  Ultimately, I had to create my own game and now I have to create all the support material for that game.  The advantage is I get exactly what I want, but the disadvantage is that it takes more work - I can't be lazy and passively consume products created for my benefit.