Quote from: D-503;651790The drama point mechanic in Buffy is brilliant, and helps the game emulate the source material. Buffy for me is proof that drama points are not necessarily the sign of a weak system.

There's lots of other examples of well implemented karma mechanics, but Buffy is just such a good example that when I opened the thread I just did a search to see who mentioned it first so I could quote them.

Can you elaborate more on how it works? And welcome back here

Quote from: D-503;651792Yeah, I'm not a fan of that either. Good play is its own reward, it doesn't require a benny on top.

I agree. I don't give out XP or bennies or whatnot for roleplaying, ever.

I think it's ridiculous to use the term cheating regarding X points.

Quote from: Marleycat;651956I hate that also. I like when it's set up more like 4E's/FantasyCraft's action points or Warhammer's fate points something that is hardwired into the system itself not an extra bennie on top of the system.

Sounds right to me; I don't mind built in resources that are not metaplot related.

I don't like metaplot mechanics and resources at all though.

I am very biased against them.

I personally don't use them for metaplot rewards but for focusing on the game or even if someone makes me laugh.

That is a personal choice of what I want to encourage in the game. Might be meta but I think meta is a part of the game. We all take time out of our real lives to play a fake / made up game and if it makes my players happy, as players, to get an occasional bennie then I'm happy as well. Plus they use them in game when the dice hate them, which is also a factor. Its not as if they can escape all bad rolls since it is an limited resource. They also get to succeed in rolls importantt o the character ina role playing sense. One player only spends his to avoid harm in combat (he is kind of cowardly) and to avoid losing money on a job (being greedy) others may only use them to prvent actual death but willing to get hurt and roughed up.

Just a few thoughts and experiences.

d20 is some cruel ish. I hate what that die does while loving the wide side (natural 20).

Hero Points and Bennies & the rest are just counters to the "whiff factor" that happens in-game. If you can correct a miss with a hit, all the better.

All games can't be GURPS. I felt with that system, I could run as-is. Most others need help & the help is shapely. M&M wouldn't work without Hero Points.

See, I think Buffy's failing with drama points was they come back too easily. I had hoped early mentions of the Slayer getting DP back by having her friends helping her recover from heartbreak and similar /in setting/ methods would recharge them. Still mechanical but rewarded by actions taken by the characters, not the players.

Quote from: Grymbok;651356I just can't see "re-roll points" as being a part of a resolution system. They're just a do-over for when the resolution system produces results you don't like.

Eh, I don't see any difference between that and a "roll and keep" dice pool mechanic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;652804Eh, I don't see any difference between that and a "roll and keep" dice pool mechanic.

So what's a 'resolution system' supposed to do anyway...? If we answer that as something like it 'provide a fair chance of success for PCs and NPCs modelled on the circumstances' then rerolls from karma sit outside the main system.

Even games which are roll n' keep typically have the numbers of dice you roll and keep based off something non-arbitrary like a skill or stat, not whether you feel like winning a check today. Different intent, even if its the same mechanism.

Quote from: TristramEvans;652804Eh, I don't see any difference between that and a "roll and keep" dice pool mechanic.

Is the only difference how often you roll more dice?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652827Even games which are roll n' keep typically have the numbers of dice you roll and keep based off something non-arbitrary like a skill or stat, not whether you feel like winning a check today. Different intent, even if its the same mechanism.

You are a wise man.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652827So what's a 'resolution system' supposed to do anyway...?

At its most basic, a resolution system in an RPG is there to avoid dissonance, the typical example being when kids are playing "Cowboys & Indians" (or "Star Wars" or "Commandos & terrorists" or whatever kids play these days when not wired to the TV or computer), and one says "I shoot you" and the other says "nuh uh, I was behind the pillar", and an argument ensues as the two contradictory perceptions of the shared imaginary environment come into conflict. The system provides a means to facilitate multiple views of an imaginary environment without contradiction. As secondary features, a system may also be an aid to creativity, an answer to an unknown, a guide for arbitration, and a means to provide randomization for the sake of verisimilitude.  

QuoteEven games which are roll n' keep typically have the numbers of dice you roll and keep based off something non-arbitrary like a skill or stat, not whether you feel like winning a check today. Different intent, even if its the same mechanism.

I think that's a gross over-simplification of the intent of multiple systems. I also would not like a game system that was based upon the premise, "the character feels like winning today". But that premise is not in anyway linked to any mechanic, and certainly does not describe any game I've played featuring re-roll mechanics. Maybe that's how Fate 3rd uses them? But that's not a universal description by any means.

I would note that most systems without such hero points don't have a representation of extra effort or concentration.  

A limited example of extra effort - for example - is Pushing in the Hero System, where a character spends extra endurance to increase their Strength or power.  This has no effect on skills, though - even though there is finite mental concentration and effort that can effect how different attempts turn out.  

One could argue that hero points are typically too powerful to realistically represent just extra concentration or effort.  However, systems are usually unrealistic anyway - deliberately so to represent larger-than-life heroes who can fight dragons and do otherwise impossible tasks.  

While I understand preference to spend points before the roll, in practice I find most players find it very dissatisfying to spend points and fail anyway, or spend points and not need them.  Also, it tends to slow the game down as players consider whether to spend on a given roll.  I find it is both faster and more satisfying to players to give out fewer points, but have them spent after the roll so they always count.  

Quote from: Silverlion;652779See, I think Buffy's failing with drama points was they come back too easily. I had hoped early mentions of the Slayer getting DP back by having her friends helping her recover from heartbreak and similar /in setting/ methods would recharge them. Still mechanical but rewarded by actions taken by the characters, not the players.

Personally, from years of play of the Buffy system, I liked this.  I feel that many mechanical rewards for dramatic/personal activities makes them more mechanical rather than richer.  If tightly defined (i.e. "do X to gain a point for trait Y"), then they tend to make characters repeat the same actions over and over - making characterization duller rather than richer.  If loosely defined, then this can become simply pleasing the GM to get the points.  

We had plenty of heartbreak and drama in our Buffy campaigns without tying it to rewards.  I thought the system generally worked very well.

Quote from: gleichman;652899You are a wise man.

Thanks!

Quote from: TristramEvans;652982I think that's a gross over-simplification of the intent of multiple systems. I also would not like a game system that was based upon the premise, "the character feels like winning today". But that premise is not in anyway linked to any mechanic, and certainly does not describe any game I've played featuring re-roll mechanics. Maybe that's how Fate 3rd uses them? But that's not a universal description by any means.

OK, partly based on how much they feel like winning today?
Its not completely ad hoc. I mean, you may run out of points, or you may succeed anyway without spending any. Still, the chance of a character succeeding depends a lot on if they're using their points - that's the point - while every other un-modified roll in the game is based on rules which give, for the most part, odds based on in-game reality, without player input.

So now that D&D 5E is a Roll and Keep system...your fighters' chance of, say,  breaking through a door is higher if they have "advantage" and an extra dice, but whether they have advantage is still based on the situation, not something meta like how many points they have left. (At least, I hope so. See what they end up with I guess).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;652827Even games which are roll n' keep typically have the numbers of dice you roll and keep based off something non-arbitrary like a skill or stat, not whether you feel like winning a check today.

Is "skill or stat" never used for what we're talking about here? Is that a definitional thing nobody thought worth mentioning?

If so, then what defines "skill or stat" as a different thing from this?

Do you propose that a person in our real world never has opportunity to decide whether to invest an extra effort?

Do you propose that in our imaginary magical worlds people must never have such opportunity?

Quote from: Phillip;653077Do you propose that a person in our real world never has opportunity to decide whether to invest an extra effort?

I don't think anyone is saying that's not possible.

What they are saying is that real world people don't have access to a meta-world stack of points that they decide to use. And that normal in-game resolutions systems should contain the concept of extra effort in their success chance (often express as a chance of success against the odds, or critical successes) as well as a complete failure to apply that extra effort correctly (represented as skill fumbles).

That the one-way direction of Plot and Hero points, and the complete meta-game control of them that is the objection.

That people can't see the differences is... what it is.