The thread I started regarding Rules as a resource for the referee, not for players... generated some discussion about what constitutes actually playing the game. To be specific -

What makes D&D, D&D? Is it...

• A framework of dice rules (d4, d6, d8, etc) with d20 for primary rolls, success / no success mechanism.


• Class/level effects (+X per level, collections of benefits by class/level, etc)


• Abstract Damage / Hit Points


• Saving Throws


• Miniatures


• Content / fantasy tropes of the base game (Fighters, Magic Users, Halflings, Dwarves)


• Is it the shared social mechanism - such as we were discussing above - that there is the world simulator DM and players that may or may not have to know any rules at all?


• ... (other aspects to add?)

So the point in asking is to see what sort of "minimal pair" we can come up with to see what is or isn't D&D. This also goes back to the OSR vs Storygames, but also other aspects of play. It seems obvious to me that you can't hang just one of the bullet points on any game. Bullet 1 can apply to any OGL / d20 type game, for example. Bullet 1+2 Not 3 could be used to describe DungeonWorld, which is not D&D, right? 2+3 Not 1 could be almost any number of fantasy role playing games.

// I am cool with adding in additional descriptive points to this original post as anyone suggests them - some already added.

It'll vary with every player and DM. You can see it in how some people consider this or that to be D&D or not, what people consider "old school" or not, what people consider "progress in game design" or not...

You won't have a clear consensus on that question.

What Can You Remove from D&D and it Still Be D&D?

The grid

I think it's easier to list what I think is absolutely necessary for it to still be D&D:

- The concept of races and classes (incl. race-classes like in BECMI).

- A combat system that revolves around a d20 roll, an Armour Class and modifiers based on class, level and other factors (be that expressed as a bonus like BAB or a moving target number like THAC0 or the Combat Matrix entries). There might be extra bells and whistles, but this would be the core. EDIT: Like Bill pointed out, also HP. Arguably the concept of Saving Throws.

- I would like to say a certain set of assumptions and tendencies regarding the game's style, goals and ethos, but I'd be hard-pressed to offer a specific list that's both sufficiently inclusive and distinct.


What's certainly NOT absolutely necessary:

- Any specific set of races or classes.
- Vancian spellcasting. (Feel free to thrash in impotent rage at that claim.)

I will answer based on my personal opinion.

DND, to feel like DND, must have:

Levels.

Hit Points.

Saves.

Magic and Monsters.


Thats what springs to mind.

The only thing required, to me, would be the idea that the DM is a judge, not merely a robot running the game in a procedural-like format. Thus, Runequest is "skills-based D&D" and Star Frontiers is "scifi D&D". That's how I always thought of it as a kid...it's also why I don't consider 4th edition to be D&D.

Quote from: Premier;651038What's certainly NOT absolutely necessary:

- Vancian spellcasting. (Feel free to thrash in impotent rage at that claim.)

You know, I was about to start thrashing...then I realised that ACKS does not, strictly speaking, have Vancian spellcasting. And I loves me some ACKS.

Damn you for making me examine me preconceptions!

Quote from: Lynn;651028Bullet 1+2 Not 3 could be used to describe DungeonWorld, which is not D&D, right? 2+3 Not 1 could be almost any number of fantasy role playing games.

If you're looking for a description which uniquely describes D&D but excludes all other fantasy RPGs, then you're going to have to resort to things like "is called D&D" or "includes mind flayers in its monster list". Because otherwise I don't think you're going to be able to define it in such a way that your definition specifically encompasses D&D while excluding (say) Palladium FRP.

Quote from: Grymbok;651078I don't think you're going to be able to define it in such a way that your definition specifically encompasses D&D while excluding (say) Palladium FRP.

I know it when I see it?

Quote from: Bobloblah;651072You know, I was about to start thrashing...then I realised that ACKS does not, strictly speaking, have Vancian spellcasting. And I loves me some ACKS.

But ACKS isn't D&D, it's ACKS!

Quote from: Jacob Marley;651112But ACKS isn't D&D, it's ACKS!

OH NOES! I'M PLAYING THE WRONG GAME!
...
..
.
Please tell me you're not serious?

The first version that most people would recognize as an older edition D&D would be the three 1974 core booklets plus the Greyhawk supplements.

Pretty much what differs between OD&D+Greyhawk to 2E without Skills & Powers are implementation details. The general system is the same between all of them.

Swords & Wizardry, Core rules are pretty close to what would be an ur-D&D.

WOTC

Here is a list adapted from the Table of Content from Swords & Wizardry which I think will be a useful guide to the core rules of D&D.

Chapter 1: Introduction

• The Dice
• Creating a Character
• Character Sheet
• Roll Ability Scores

Chapter 2: Character Classes

• Choose a Character Class

Cleric
Fighter
Magic-user
Thief

• Choose a Character Race

Dwarves
Elves
Halflings

• Choose an Alignment

Section 3: Items and Equipment

• Buy Equipment
• Starting Gold
• Calculating Armor Class
• How Much You Can Carry
• Movement

Section4: Playing the Game

• Gaining Experience
• Time
• Saving Throws
• Combat
• Damage and Death
• Healing
• Morale
• Magical Research

Section 5: Spells

• Cleric Spell List
• Magic-user Spell List

Section 6: Monsters

• Monster List

Section 7: Treasure

• Magic Potions
• Protection Scrolls
• Unusual Armors
• Unusual Weapons
• Wands
• Rings
• Staffs
• Misc. Magical Items
• Cursed Items

Hm.  I never know how these things go.  For me D&D is, not in this order, and all are equally important:

• 9 alignments
• vancian spellcasting
• 6 stats, 3-18 - higher (or lower) with exceptional conditions
• Damage bonuses for great strength, defensive bonuses for great dexterity, spell bonuses for great intelligence or wisdom, hit point bonuses for high constitution, follower/henchman/hireling bonuses for high charisma.
• Dwarves, elves, humans, halflings, gnomes, half-orcs, half-elves
• fighters, rangers, paladins, magic-users, illusionists, clerics, druids, thieves, assassins, bards, monks
• Exploring dungeons and on occasion encountering dragons
• unfettered ribaldry when in town
• story isn't a mechanic, it's a result of playing
• named spells - it's not "magic aura" it's Nystul's magic aura, etc.
  
• Cosmic Planar wheel
• XP for treasure
• +n magic items
  
• Healing comes by resting, or by cleric, or by potion or other magic item
• Hit points
• Separate XP for each class
• GP = XP
• Magic items = XP
• Becoming a landholder at higher levels
• The chance to face off with Gods at higher levels
• Some limits on what humans can do, some limits on what demi-humans can do
• Gonzo monsters like Beholders, Blink Dogs, Mind Flayers, Owlbears and on and on
• Dungeons full of plunder
• Not giving a fig about some evil overlord's sob story - just putting him to the sword in the name of justice!