Quote from: Ian Noble;648098There's no "casual, flexible crowd" that will be interested in D&D. Those people simply go to video games for their fantasy gaming fix.

That is one of the stupider comments of the week, right there.

Of course there is a casual, flexible crowd.  You don't game with them apparently.  I do.

Also, lots of under-40 players that are not the children of gamers.  My local game store and game cons are full of them.

It would seem your experiences are rather limited.

Quote from: camazotz;648097D&D Next "meh" got 1,760,000 hits

D&D Next "apathy" got 5,950,000 hits

D&D Next "I Don't Care" got 2,840,000 results

D&D Next "I hate it" got 2,570,000 hits

BUT!

D&D Next "yay" got 7,640,000 hits

D&D Next "I am Excited" got 1,670,000 hits

D&D Next "eager" got 13,100,000 hits

D&D Next "About time" got 9,900,000 hits

D&D Next "can't wait" got 1,810,000 results


....proving that this may be a terrible way to prove anything unless you're in to data mining.

...meh.

I wasn't necessarily offering "proof", but I have little confidence in the latest installation of the Edition Treadmill.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;648120...meh.

I wasn't necessarily offering "proof", but I have little confidence in the latest installation of the Edition Treadmill.

So, you were not offering proof, you were just offering support for your assertion that the majority of people think it's meh, to back up your own feelings on the matter?

Dude, that's what we call an offer of proof, and it was an incorrect one.  There was no point to your doing that, and telling people to Google it, if it was to simply validate your own feelings.  Nobody else needs to Google something to validate your feelings.  We get you don't have confidence in the edition.  Cool.  The response of "your feelings might not be universal" should be taken as just that then.

Quote from: Mistwell;648108My local game store and game cons are full of them.

As I go to the same local game stores you do and the same cons you do, they're really not. I think you're simply too feeble-minded to perceive your environment.

This isn't surprising. I see many of your kind at cons and game stores.

I wish my hobby didn't have you people in it, but alas it does.

Quote from: Mistwell;648128So, you were not offering proof, you were just offering support for your assertion that the majority of people think it's meh, to back up your own feelings on the matter?

Dude, that's what we call an offer of proof, and it was an incorrect one.  There was no point to your doing that, and telling people to Google it, if it was to simply validate your own feelings.  Nobody else needs to Google something to validate your feelings.  We get you don't have confidence in the edition.  Cool.  The response of "your feelings might not be universal" should be taken as just that then.

Look, maybe this hurts your delicate feelings, or maybe you're just white knighting on yet another thread for shits and giggles. I neither know nor care. Instead, I'm going to follow the advice bolded below in this definition of you:

Quote from: [BMistwelling Definition from Circvs Maximvs Wiki[/B]]

Mistwelling a thread is a form of thread derailment not unlike Spoonying a thread or Torming a thread. Where the preferred mechanism of those two was to make a thread all about themselves by in Spoony's case talking about himself and in Torm's case drawing attacks upon himself, Mistwell's chosen approach involves staking out ludicrous White Knight defences of people or positions rightly taking a beating. By presenting a living breathing local target, he provides a distraction of sorts for the subject who has no clue they're being ripped on some silly messageboard somewhere. What he feels he accomplishes by this is unclear, though he does clearly take enjoyment from the conflicts he stirs up.

The more contrarian, wrong-headed or stupid the defence, the more Mistwell likes it, and the more it's guaranteed to atom-bomb a thread. He's become a master at white knighting anything at any time, unfortunately for him he's become so predictable in the role that you see him coming a mile away, and some people have even taken to predicting how and when he's going to charge in on his trusty steed.

Mistwell was first tagged with this post: [1]

"Hey look, Mistwell Mistwells another thread.

That's right, you're now a verb because you've supplanted Spoony and Torm as our resident thread-destroying black-hole of inevitability."

It's everyone's responsibility to help threads avoid Mistwell's event horizon of stupidity. Don't bite on his hasty defences - or if you do, keep it to a simple "you're an idiot" and move on.

Mistwell will white knight almost anything: the Jester seems immune to his, er, proclivities.

Mistwell Flow Chart [2]

Retrieved from "http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/wiki/index.php/Mistwelling"

Mistwell, you're an idiot.

Quote from: Haffrung;648103The casual crowd doesn't have to be teenagers. A lot of 40-something gamers don't have the time or inclination to master 300 pages of rules and play RPGs where a combat with five orcs takes over an hour. But they may very well get back into the game with a version that plays quickly, with moderate rules overhead, and modern presentation and game mechanics.

And retro-clones simply aren't on the radar of anyone outside the fraction of RPGers who hang out on forums. Most people like handsomely designed and printed books with professional layout and artwork. And yeah, the D&D name still matters to a lot of people.

Actually, I think a retro-clone of AD&D or Basic D&D could do very well, but it would need to contain an entirely new campaign setting for people to explore. Make the game into a boxed set, with character sheets and dice. You could include some pregenerated characters, miniatures, maps, cards, and maybe even some coins. Play up the somatic components of the game, describe the wonder of the setting, and make sure that the production values are high.

It's doable. :cool:

Quote from: Haffrung;648103The casual crowd doesn't have to be teenagers. A lot of 40-something gamers don't have the time or inclination to master 300 pages of rules and play RPGs where a combat with five orcs takes over an hour. But they may very well get back into the game with a version that plays quickly, with moderate rules overhead, and modern presentation and game mechanics.

Im not sure I agree here - Pathfinder continues to sell, and its a 3.5 derivative.

Quote from: Haffrung;648103And retro-clones simply aren't on the radar of anyone outside the fraction of RPGers who hang out on forums. Most people like handsomely designed and printed books with professional layout and artwork. And yeah, the D&D name still matters to a lot of people.

While I agree they reach a fraction, they are reaching some who are not regular forum dwellers. Forum dwellers like us often introduce our friends and groups to retroclones. My group has two separate LotFP games going for example, and it was introduced to the group by someone who learned of it by word of mouth.

Also, some retroclones are reaching some stores. Powells, thought to be the largest used bookstore in the world, for example, carries LotFP plus others.

I may not have the largest retro-clone, nor the flashiest, but it exists, and is sold. Something works. It has already reached the European market, and India. Weird. The point I am making is that people need to stop treating RPGs like disposable creative systems the moment they get ticked with the mechanics. For the company, it is about major dollars; for the Players - read consumers - it should be about fun. Arneson knew this. Thank you for your attention

Quote from: Ian Noble;648210As I go to the same local game stores you do and the same cons you do, they're really not. I think you're simply too feeble-minded to perceive your environment.

This isn't surprising. I see many of your kind at cons and game stores.

I wish my hobby didn't have you people in it, but alas it does.

Why not worry about your local table and campaign instead?

See my sig below.

Quote from: Haffrung;648103The casual crowd doesn't have to be teenagers. A lot of 40-something gamers don't have the time or inclination to master 300 pages of rules and play RPGs where a combat with five orcs takes over an hour. But they may very well get back into the game with a version that plays quickly, with moderate rules overhead, and modern presentation and game mechanics.

And retro-clones simply aren't on the radar of anyone outside the fraction of RPGers who hang out on forums. Most people like handsomely designed and printed books with professional layout and artwork. And yeah, the D&D name still matters to a lot of people.

Some players don't realize it, but it is possible to play and enjoy an rpg without mastering jack squat.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;648291Actually, I think a retro-clone of AD&D or Basic D&D could do very well, but it would need to contain an entirely new campaign setting for people to explore. Make the game into a boxed set, with character sheets and dice. You could include some pregenerated characters, miniatures, maps, cards, and maybe even some coins. Play up the somatic components of the game, describe the wonder of the setting, and make sure that the production values are high.

It's doable. :cool:

Sounds like Dragon Age. Furthermore, it leverages a very popular CRPG, and is published by one of the more professional, established tabletop RPG companies out there.

But it's not D&D. So it simply doesn't have anywhere near the market reach of D&D. That would also be the case for even the most lavishly-produced retro-clone

Quote from: Lynn;648297Im not sure I agree here - Pathfinder continues to sell, and its a 3.5 derivative.

I'm not saying a complex iteration of D&D can't sell well. Pathfinder obviously proves that. I'm just saying a version of D&D that caters to casual players -including lapsed players of all versions - may also sell well. One of the reasons for the tremendous growth in hobby boardgames is they started aiming at busy adults who meet once or twice a month for a short session, rather than 19-year-olds who can play for seven hours at a shot and are happy to take rulebooks home to learn complex systems. WotC are likely privy to marketing and demographic data that shows how attractive the casual adult gaming market is.

Aren't there millions of roleplayers in the world, and they're all playing World of Warcraft et. al.?

Now don't get me wrong, it aint for me, but there are whole servers dedicated to RP only, and I know of many people who only play to talk and roleplay and interact.

So we won.

Quote from: tzunder;648492Aren't there millions of roleplayers in the world, and they're all playing World of Warcraft et. al.?

So what happens in WoW when I pull the laces from my boots, knot them into a garotte, use the loop to climb the silver Tower of the Lantern, á la Mulan, strangle the avian Cult-Keeper on his perch at the top, and make off with the Egg of Fortune?

Do bootlaces even exist in WoW?

Quote from: The Traveller;648502So what happens in WoW when I pull the laces from my boots, knot them into a garotte, use the loop to climb the silver Tower of the Lantern, á la Mulan, strangle the avian Cult-Keeper on his perch at the top, and make off with the Egg of Fortune?

Do bootlaces even exist in WoW?

No, but people seem quite happy to roleplay within the constraints of the world, and eventually there will be bootlaces.

But the more I reflect on it the more I tend to agree that young kinds could really get the same kick from face to face gaming that we did, but isn't the real questions, how do we get them off the Xbox or Facebook and meet each other?

I think one of the big appeals of roleplay in MMOs is anonymity. I'm not sure how well the secret desire of a 42 year old male to impersonate a 17 year old girl and marry a heroic ranger (played by a 13 year old boy) can be satisfied in a tabletop game.