Quote from: The Traveller;646524Sure they will. Sorry but look at the work this dude in the Ukraine is rolling out for five bucks a pop. You overpaid for the art here.


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It is possible to find deals like this (though I would check to see if he is actually giving the rights to publish the art as well) but the rates Sinenomine gave are also pretty reasonable for the rpg industry and it is tough getting a better deal than he is getting while also maintaining quality (though not impossible if you have the time to search for deals). When I got into this I was determined initially to get by on cheap to free art. Turned out to be a lot harder to maintain that than I thought and now most of our budget goes toward artwork. Occassionally I will find a good deal, or make a trade with an artist (writing for artwork or something like that). It is quite difficult though to rely on that, particularly once you get a regular production schedule going. I can think of countless instances where I was waiting for free or cheap art that never arrived. I do know some people who manage to do so, but they also spend a lot of their time searching for deals.

Quote from: SineNomine;646530Great. I need him to take specific art direction, sell all rights to the art, work to my schedule, and fit with the visual idiom of the rest of the game. And I need about five of him to get the art done in a timely fashion.

He's got 100% satisfaction, the art looks quite nice actually, and he's swamped with work. In very poor countries that $5 will go a hell of a lot further, in the Philippines for example living expenses are about 20% of most western countries, to maintain a similar lifestyle. If you want a poor lifestyle over there you don't have to spend a cent really.

Quote from: SineNomine;646530It's because they can't deliver on time, to spec, in volume sufficient to be serviceable. I don't have a month to sit around while they wait to get inspired. I don't have leisure to run three revision passes while they learn how to draw feet.

Did you even look at that profile? And he's far from unique. Believe me there is no international union of artists. Programmers are in the exact same boat.

Quote from: SineNomine;646530I haven't seen much evidence of that myself, and that certainly wasn't the case last October. People do not like getting billed twice for their KS pledges, plus collecting shipping payment at ship time is a whole new layer of transaction costs and credit card processing.

Let them know in advance, they can pledge or not at their leisure. If the layer is cheaper than paying the shipping costs yourself, do the layer. Honestly this sounds like a massive hole in your business plan.

Quote from: SineNomine;646530I just accepted that making the 10K stretch minimum meant that I'd have to make the profit on the post-KS sales.

If you intended it as a loss leader from the start why are you crying about the fact that you didn't make much profit on it? What...?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;646532the rates Sinenomine gave are also pretty reasonable for the rpg industry and it is tough getting a better deal than he is getting while also maintaining quality (though not impossible if you have the time to search for deals). When I got into this I was determined initially to get by on cheap to free art. Turned out to be a lot harder to maintain that than I thought and now most of our budget goes toward artwork. Occassionally I will find a good deal, or make a trade with an artist (writing for artwork or something like that). It is quite difficult though to rely on that, particularly once you get a regular production schedule going. I can think of countless instances where I was waiting for free or cheap art that never arrived. I do know some people who manage to do so, but they also spend a lot of their time searching for deals.

Personally my solution is option c) do the art yourself.

Quote from: Rincewind1;646529Fair enough as well. But on the other hand - I keep looking on the internet, and I see a lot of people who show at least above average/decent drawing capabilities. You need but to look at the webcomic crowds, to see hundreds of people drawing excellent stuff for free - and judging by the average quality of a plot, they are in desperate need for a writer.

As I noted above, the usefulness of an artist is measured by more than their cheapness. Free art is worthless to me if the artist can't work to the directions, deliver on time, fit the visual idiom I want, and hand over the full rights to it. The great majority of those artists drawing great free stuff out there are invalid on one or more of these points, and those who can deliver all of them rapidly learn how much they're really worth.

This is not to say that you can't get dirt-cheap art from artists who don't realize what they're worth yet, but I didn't get into this business to skin hobbyists. More than once, I've had to tell one of my artists, "You are charging me too little. You should be billing me at least X for this work, so I will pay you X." I consider this basic business hygiene, because it pays off in the long run. My artists work fast, deliver what I ask for, and don't flake. That means I can put out a half-dozen books a year, because I can just slot my art order and write instead of having to ride herd on a bunch of clueless or resentful brushworkers. As in most things in life, you get what you pay for.

And if somebody is honestly convinced that there's all this great dirt-cheap art out there just crying out to be made into RPG illos, well, let them give it a try. One year later, they can tell us how fabulously it worked out for them. (Spoiler: It will not be fabulous.)

QuoteWhy did you not specify  that they pay for shipping, then? I live in Europe, and when I backed a few KSes, I had to pay arm and a leg for shipping. Your business decision, really.

I folded the shipping cost into the pledge levels because A) that's how kickstarters usually work, and B) I had no desire to pay a second round of transaction costs and deal with the fulfillment headache that would come of collecting their shipping money when the book was finally ready.

QuoteI can only speak from Polish/European perspective, but since it is not  that hard nor expensive to start at least a proto- small business in the bureocratic hellhole that I live in, it can't be too hard in the US. And should you had that, you'd write at least such stuff as shipping under costs. As an old joke says, "If you have a problem you can fix with money it's not a problem, it's just costs".

Oh, I already did write off the shipping as a cost of business, which is why I only paid taxes on the $1,100 left over instead of the full sum. But I'm operating as a sole proprietorship, which means the income is treated as pass-through; I add it directly to my employment income to determine my total taxable income for the year. I also pay a 15% self-employment tax on it. When combined with my 25% marginal tax bracket, I'm basically handing 40 cents out of every dollar I make on Sine Nomine to the government. Any KS patron who decided to blow his take on hookers and blow would end up with a very hefty tax bill at the end of the year, since hookers and blow are not often considered legitimate business expenses.

I'm satisfied with the KS's results because I now have a completely amortized RPG and module to sell, people paid me to build good working relationships with extremely reliable artists, and a proven KS track record of delivering early in a genre where that is borderline unheard-of. I would much rather have had these things than an extra 5K after taxes. The next time I go back to the well, I'll be able to point at Spears of the Dawn as a working illustration of the fact that I can and will deliver. Given the usual record of RPG kickstarters, that is worth money.

Quote from: The Traveller;646533Personally my solution is option c) do the art yourself.

That is the ideal solution. If you have the art skills to pull this off, by all means go for it because you will save lots of money and have total control of your art content.

Quote from: SineNomine;646537And if somebody is honestly convinced that there's all this great dirt-cheap art out there just crying out to be made into RPG illos, well, let them give it a try. One year later, they can tell us how fabulously it worked out for them. (Spoiler: It will not be fabulous.)

There are buckets of completely free out of copyright art floating around, a guy had a thread on it a while back. Some really nice pieces too.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;646538That is the ideal solution. If you have the art skills to pull this off, by all means go for it because you will save lots of money and have total control of your art content.

Well the proof of the pudding etc, I've been paid handsomely for artistic work before, this is just a slightly different format. Time to work on it is the biggest shortfall at the moment!

Quote from: SineNomine;646537This is not to say that you can't get dirt-cheap art from artists who don't realize what they're worth yet, but I didn't get into this business to skin hobbyists.

it must be weird to have people tell you you need to be more predatory in your hobbyist-publishing practices, eh? unpleasant to watch, lemme say.

Quote from: Warthur;646357WotC tried to kill it, Paizo saved it, Pathfinder is now #1. What's stopping all those publishers switching to PF?

There is a lot of 3rd party support for Pathfinder from splatbooks to adventure paths.  The only thing I'm unaware of are setting books, but chances are they exist as well, it's just that most campaign settings aren't very good because it's an enormous undertaking that requires rare talent and effort.

I also agree that the economy is a huge factor, especially with younger gamers.  Sure they spend money on video games, but they aren't spending them on cars or houses with which to have the space to gather 4+ friends together without having to beg rides and deal with each other's parents, and frankly the home life of kids is not the same today as it was a few decades ago.

This extends past childhood as well as I've met plenty of 20 somethings that want to join a game that don't own cars, and don't live in places where they could or would be willing to have a boisterous group of friends over.

Also not to be too unkind but lots of pnp gamers are awful people that live in insular worlds.  This extends beyond just geek stereotypes.  I've come to the conclusion that most pnp gamers in my area are late 20ish, early 30ish overweight hairy men that play erotic elf princesses, and the entire experience is also wrapped up in some transgender crusaderism/sexual wish fulfillment.  One one hand this immediately makes the game inaccessible to anyone but the extraordinary tiny clique of people who don't live on the Internet and think that anyone gives a shit about the politics of gender identity disorders (which is almost everyone in every age group, everywhere and almost any sub-20 year old player is immediately going to call the other player a faggot to his face), and on the other hand it's also incredibly off putting even to most people who do when it goes beyond the Internet and theory into the real life of having some unattractive man want to roleplay out flirting and sexual encounters with other men in public and then take the "high road" of calling everyone bigots when they refuse to do so.

The "community" is completely and totally hijacked by freaks who are uncomfortable with being denied the opportunity to make other people uncomfortable socially and sexually in public, for either purposes of vetting them or simply getting their jollies for feeling self-righteous at outgroup members expense.

This is my experience with playing in public with strangers.  I can't think of a single game that didn't include at least one grown man whose primary reason for playing is seemingly to control his paper doll elfen waif into crotch diving at every opportunity.  The other side of this same coin is the ones that randomly determine their gender, and then refuse to roleplay and then extol the gaming table as to how gendered roles are social constructs so his elfen waif will more or less resemble the attitudes and affectations of a 30 something slightly overweight nerd that refuses to roleplay characters lest he inadvertently do something either masculine or feminine and have to seppuku for the shame of public sexism.  This latter type is much more rare, but probably more annoying by virtue of actually being more time consuming at the table and needy on an interpersonal level.

I'm firmly of the belief that the reason the hobby has never grown beyond small groups of tight knit friends is because you can't effectively combat this exhibitionism (in point of fact it will probably be illegal to attempt to do so in the near future), which is the byproduct of unfettered imagination.  Even MMOs have RP servers which are almost 100% about erotic roleplay, and any player hub will have areas that basically resemble some sex chat room.

There is no real solution to this problem that can be accomplished by anyone who is out for a profit.

Oh my... :confused:

I have taken the initiative. My game is basic and fun and simplified. If you take away all of the dross of the old school games, and gain a fresh perspective on what is left, then that is what I have tried to do. So far, so good. It is now published.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;646573There is a lot of 3rd party support for Pathfinder from splatbooks to adventure paths.  The only thing I'm unaware of are setting books, but chances are they exist as well, it's just that most campaign settings aren't very good because it's an enormous undertaking that requires rare talent and effort.

I also agree that the economy is a huge factor, especially with younger gamers.  Sure they spend money on video games, but they aren't spending them on cars or houses with which to have the space to gather 4+ friends together without having to beg rides and deal with each other's parents, and frankly the home life of kids is not the same today as it was a few decades ago.

This extends past childhood as well as I've met plenty of 20 somethings that want to join a game that don't own cars, and don't live in places where they could or would be willing to have a boisterous group of friends over.

Also not to be too unkind but lots of pnp gamers are awful people that live in insular worlds.  This extends beyond just geek stereotypes.  I've come to the conclusion that most pnp gamers in my area are late 20ish, early 30ish overweight hairy men that play erotic elf princesses, and the entire experience is also wrapped up in some transgender crusaderism/sexual wish fulfillment.  One one hand this immediately makes the game inaccessible to anyone but the extraordinary tiny clique of people who don't live on the Internet and think that anyone gives a shit about the politics of gender identity disorders (which is almost everyone in every age group, everywhere and almost any sub-20 year old player is immediately going to call the other player a faggot to his face), and on the other hand it's also incredibly off putting even to most people who do when it goes beyond the Internet and theory into the real life of having some unattractive man want to roleplay out flirting and sexual encounters with other men in public and then take the "high road" of calling everyone bigots when they refuse to do so.

The "community" is completely and totally hijacked by freaks who are uncomfortable with being denied the opportunity to make other people uncomfortable socially and sexually in public, for either purposes of vetting them or simply getting their jollies for feeling self-righteous at outgroup members expense.

This is my experience with playing in public with strangers.  I can't think of a single game that didn't include at least one grown man whose primary reason for playing is seemingly to control his paper doll elfen waif into crotch diving at every opportunity.  The other side of this same coin is the ones that randomly determine their gender, and then refuse to roleplay and then extol the gaming table as to how gendered roles are social constructs so his elfen waif will more or less resemble the attitudes and affectations of a 30 something slightly overweight nerd that refuses to roleplay characters lest he inadvertently do something either masculine or feminine and have to seppuku for the shame of public sexism.  This latter type is much more rare, but probably more annoying by virtue of actually being more time consuming at the table and needy on an interpersonal level.

I'm firmly of the belief that the reason the hobby has never grown beyond small groups of tight knit friends is because you can't effectively combat this exhibitionism (in point of fact it will probably be illegal to attempt to do so in the near future), which is the byproduct of unfettered imagination.  Even MMOs have RP servers which are almost 100% about erotic roleplay, and any player hub will have areas that basically resemble some sex chat room.

There is no real solution to this problem that can be accomplished by anyone who is out for a profit.

As Dan Savage would put it: "Thanks for sharing."

JG

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;646412No, not a bad thing. But you're forgetting that 4e has garnered an unprecedented amount of ill-will in the gaming community, probably more so than any other edition of D&D, ever. And the type of fragmentation is different this time. During the pre-3e market, this (limited) fragmentation caused gamers to turn to other roleplaying games, and to some degree, CCGs (collectible card games). But the current fragmentation is causing gamers to turn towards other roleplaying games, card games, board games, and computer games. Heck, people are even spending more of a time sink goofing around on their tablets and cellphones. :pundit:

Is this based on personal observation or meaningful statistics? Because frankly, if someone flat-out gives up RPGs for MMOs or board games or CCGs in my experience it's usually because they were never actually that into RPGs and whichever hobby they shift over to is actually genuinely better at scratching their gaming itch. In general, I've found roleplayers more than capable of finding alternate systems they enjoy if the current D&D offering isn't to their taste.

Re: Art budgets - Exactly how much art is needed in an RPG book these days?

I ask because I for one don't expect to have a pretty picture on every page of an RPG rulebook, especially something self-published. Why not budget your Kickstarter so that if you hit basic funding the book gets cover art, any maps that are absolutely required for the product in question, and that's it, and then make adding more and lovelier art part of the stretch goals?

Quote from: Warthur;646627Re: Art budgets - Exactly how much art is needed in an RPG book these days?

A fair bit is really needed I think. You can reduce the amount with some clever layout tricks like Eclipse Phase did, but you're absolutely right that these costs should be factored into the kickstarter.

What beats me is when you get people like SineNomine weeping bitterly that there's no money in RPGs and pointing to their $600 profit on a kickstarter as evidence...

...right before they admit they intended it as a loss leader and never meant to make any money on it in the first place.

:confused:

Quote from: The Traveller;646630A fair bit is really needed I think.

Really? Provided that the text layout is reasonable - and really, anyone spending enough time with a word processor can teach themselves to do that - I think I could happily run a game which had no internal art at all.

Quote from: The Traveller;646630A fair bit is really needed I think. You can reduce the amount with some clever layout tricks like Eclipse Phase did, but you're absolutely right that these costs should be factored into the kickstarter.

What beats me is when you get people like SineNomine weeping bitterly that there's no money in RPGs and pointing to their $600 profit on a kickstarter as evidence...

...right before they admit they intended it as a loss leader and never meant to make any money on it in the first place.

:confused:

No tears were shed by me. I posted the breakdown to reply to Rincewind1, who was of the mind "I'll have a cactus grow on my hand, before I'll believe that all or even most of Kickstarter money is indeed invested in the product.". So I showed him the numbers to illustrate that producing an RPG with adequate indie-level production values is much more expensive than he had thought, and that no kickstarter is likely to have vast pools of cash lying around that aren't actually needed for the book.

Whereupon you advised me that I should be paying fourth-world wages to a guy in Ukraine, because I guess they're all clay goblins who can live on sand. Now, if I'm going to be a villain, I insist on being a much higher grade of villain than this. I want Bangladeshi sweatshops with deaf orphans chained to their drawing desks and my art orders communicated by means of a code of syncopated floggings. Telling some Ukrainian guy he's got to live on four pierogies this week instead of five is petty villainy, and I will have no part of it until the profit on it increases exponentially.