I don't think any company can "take advantage" of the "debacle" (if there is one regarding WoTC and the market).

I'll ignore computer games and most outside competition for now, because I think most gaming nowadays is electronic and a lot of the gaming audience who would be interested in the table-top RPG moved to the computer versions, and it will likely have the majority interest.

But more importantly, the way most of these games became successful was from the bottom up.  D&D went from being a cult phenomenon to a mass market product in the 1980s.  Vampire came out of nowhere and influenced how RPGs were made for over a decade or more.  WoTC build Magic: The Gathering from scratch, and it became a phenomenon, and later and was able to buy D&D and give it a burst of energy.

None of these guys said at the beginning "let's dominate the market".  It just happened.  The ones that end up on top were partly skillful, partly savvy, and partly just plain lucky.  If anything takes over the domination of WoTC in the market, it will likely be something new, something different, and something that comes out of nowhere and just expands exponentially.  

I think the only way to change the market is not to try to do it deliberately, but just keep creating new things--and I mean really new things, don't try to create the upteenth D&D clone or the 18th revision of Traveller or something like that.  Keep creating, keep thinking of new ideas, and maybe you'll find something that gets there.

Quote from: David Johansen;645785Bullshit

The only edition that comes close to doing it is First Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

It has naval combat rules, siege rules, stats for men and monsters that ignore weapon type and fix it to a die type for faster play.  Hundreds of one hit dice creatures appearing in a single encounter.

The current D&D board games don't use the actual rules of the game, they're a stripped down and modified subset.  What I'm talking about is more like the old PaceSetter boxed sets which had a short pamphlet to allow people to start playing in minutes including an adventure location map and pregenerated characters and two full rule books for advanced play.  Add a nice campaign supplement with some adventures and a massive batch of plastic figures (well, in a perfect world lead but ah well...) and you've got my perfect starter set.

I laugh at the supposedly old school players who like to forget that all the early versions of D&D purported to be for use with miniature figures.

How much would such a product cost? And what would it do differently than Paizo's Basic Game box? Also remember that 30 years ago there were no playstations, no World of Warcraft, no dungeon crawl board games and no MtG and no warhammer to compete.

Quote from: David Johansen;645785Bullshit

Right back at you, David. Naval rules and 1 hit dice creatures do not board games and tactical miniatures games make.

It's the same warped reductio ad absurdum that gave us 4e in the first place.

It's been tried. It fails.

Cost?  Well, that's an economies of scale issue.  In a perfect world where I buy out Habro to get D&D and then turn their entire engine to putting D&D on the map, well, then it's probably around $30 and the core book is hard backed.

In a less perfect world where for some reason I decide to build such a starter using Dark Passages as the core, probably around $50 and the core book is sadlestitched and the figures are metal ones I cast and sculpted myself.  This one isn't likely as the retro-clone market is flooded and even my own D&D variant isn't my favorite game by a long shot.

You get more figures in the Habro takeover version because they're plastic

The core rule book does not need to be and indeed should not be more than 100 pages.  The adventure and setting book should be the same size though it's possible the adventures and gazeteer should be individual folios so you only need the one you're playing.  I'd probably go with a town adventure, two starter dungeons, and a major dungeon.

If I had the D&D rights the setting would probably be pre gazeteer Mystria and the adventures would be Village of Homlet, The Keep on the Borderlands, and Temple of Elemental Evil.  But maybe those are over played so perhaps the cult of the reptile god series instead.  There's not much difference between iconic and a dead horse some days.

Quote from: Benoist;645790Right back at you, David. Naval rules and 1 hit dice creatures do not board games and tactical miniatures games make.

It's the same warped reductio ad absurdum that gave us 4e in the first place.

It's been tried. It fails.

Lets open up the 1e DM's guide, see the TURNING RADIUS diagrams?  The HEX GRID facing diagrams?  The random solo dungeon and wilderness rules?  It's all in there in FIRST EDITION AD&D.  Right there in the fucking DM's guide.

Where 3e and 4e went wrong is that they went from a fluid, modular game that could be used in a million ways and turned it into a rigid, formally structured game that restricted and complicated any attempt to fiddle with the system.

But yeah, the hit dice system is the core functional element of the combat system and it is clearly a wargame mechanic intended to abstract large combats.

Quote from: David Johansen;645794Lets open up the 1e DM's guide, see the TURNING RADIUS diagrams?  The HEX GRID facing diagrams?  The random solo dungeon and wilderness rules?  It's all in there in FIRST EDITION AD&D.  Right there in the fucking DM's guide.

Oh! So you're one of those guys looking at the pretty diagrams without actually reading the damn book, are you?

 OK. That explains the communication breakdown.

No, but I haven't read it as recently as you have.  Still I think we're not as far apart as you think.  I do think that mapless, more or less free form narrative (as opposed to narrativist) play should and always will be the standard mode of play.  But I don't believe that people who want to use miniatures and maps should be neglected either.

When I talk about the contents of a starter set I'm talking about doing everything possible to get people to buy the damn thing and actually give it a try.  I'm also wanting to prevent some self appointed Dungeon Master from giving everyone a horrible experience.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with a DMless rules walk through that can be played within five minutes of openning the box.  Heck, Warhammer even does this.  There's a little pamphlet that has you pull out a couple figures and shows you how they fight.  I am, by no means suggesting that the adventures should be reduced to a series of set piece encounters and map tiles.  Make the map tiles generic enough to get good use, sure, but reduce the dungeon maps to tile layouts?  No way.

I'm talking strictly about teaching tools and cool toy value to get it off the store shelves (and my own miniatures collecting fetish) when I discuss what goes in the starter.

As far as miniatures battles, sieges, and naval combat go, Warhammer has a huge market share and since we're talking business I don't see why we should just let them have it.  D&D's core rules can handle it so why not showcase it and agressively pursue that market?  Especially when miniatures are such a good on-going sales product.

You seem to want to tie the publisher's hands behind their back when it comes to keeping the game you love in print.

Quote from: David Johansen;645797No, but I haven't read it as recently as you have.  Still I think we're not as far apart as you think.  I do think that mapless, more or less free form narrative (as opposed to narrativist) play should and always will be the standard mode of play.  But I don't believe that people who want to use miniatures and maps should be neglected either.

There is a WORLD of difference between what you are suggesting here, that people who want to play with miniatures and maps should not be neglected in the ADVANCED game, which I agree with, and what you proposed a few posts above, which is to create yet-another-4e fail-game trying to function as an emulator of other game types and media, which is, again, FAILtastic and has been tried before.

Quote from: David Johansen;645797When I talk about the contents of a starter set I'm talking about doing everything possible to get people to buy the damn thing and actually give it a try.  I'm also wanting to prevent some self appointed Dungeon Master from giving everyone a horrible experience.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with a DMless rules walk through that can be played within five minutes of openning the box.  Heck, Warhammer even does this.  There's a little pamphlet that has you pull out a couple figures and shows you how they fight.  I am, by no means suggesting that the adventures should be reduced to a series of set piece encounters and map tiles.  Make the map tiles generic enough to get good use, sure, but reduce the dungeon maps to tile layouts?  No way.

An "auberge espagnole" starter set trying to be everything, albeit just a pale copy of whatever it copies, to everyone, whatever that means in altering the actual specificity of the product you are selling and would make it stand out on its own terms, and cutting off the balls of the prospecting DM will result in a crap product. This is total nonsense. Utter crap. I hope nobody at the helm of D&D ever listens to this type of total bullshit again. Seriously. With all my heart.

Quote from: David Johansen;645797I'm talking strictly about teaching tools and cool toy value to get it off the store shelves (and my own miniatures collecting fetish) when I discuss what goes in the starter.

How about introducing people to, you know, role playing games? The worlds of their own imaginations, instead of trying to sell the thing as something it isn't? I know. Crazy idea.

Quote from: David Johansen;645797As far as miniatures battles, sieges, and naval combat go, Warhammer has a huge market share and since we're talking business I don't see why we should just let them have it.  D&D's core rules can handle it so why not showcase it and agressively pursue that market?  Especially when miniatures are such a good on-going sales product.

Because D&D is not Warhammer. Warhammer is first and foremost a miniatures tactical skirmish game. D&D is a role playing game, or at least, it's supposed to be, and could be quite successful at being just that again, if it tried.

Quote from: David Johansen;645797You seem to want to tie the publisher's hands behind their back when it comes to keeping the game you love in print.

No. I want the publisher to stop thinking in terms of other media and game types and bullshit and to stop trying to create a pre-packaged consumerist item where all you do is play inside the confines of the toy box, and instead try to have faith in the inherent open-endedness of role playing games on their own merits again.

Quote from: David Johansen;645794Lets open up the 1e DM's guide, see the TURNING RADIUS diagrams?  The HEX GRID facing diagrams?  The random solo dungeon and wilderness rules?  It's all in there in FIRST EDITION AD&D.  Right there in the fucking DM's guide.

Revisionism is strong with the OSR.

D&D was produced by a wargame company, it contained language and methods common to the wargames of the time and anyone from the period familar with TSR products would know that it wasn't intended to played without a map and miniatures of some type, indeed these were some of the first supporting products produced for the game line.

But you'll not win any brownie points with this crowd pointing such things out. Best to leave them with their illusions, worse case they'll do what the Forge did- wreck the next version of D&D.

Let them. It's the only way to learn.

Quote from: gleichman;645800Revisionism is strong with the OSR.

D&D was produced by a wargame company, it contained language and methods common to the wargames of the time and anyone from the period familar with TSR products would know that it wasn't intended to played without a map and miniatures of some type, indeed these were some of the first supporting products produced for the game line.

But you'll not win any brownie points with this crowd pointing such things out. Best to leave them with their illusions, worse case they'll do what the Forge did- wreck the next version of D&D.

Let them. It's the only way to learn.

If it were not for Basic all this discussion would not exist. It is the Basic set that made D&D popular in the market. So, was Basic a wargame? Or did Chainmail make D&D any popular?
Nope.

Quote from: xech;645801If it were not for Basic all this discussion would not exist. It is the Basic set that made D&D popular in the market. So, was Basic a wargame? Or did Chainmail make D&D any popular?
Nope.

Yes, but Basic actually plays better than Advanced when used as a wargame because all the weapons have single die / no modifiers damages.  And the movement rates and ranges are still in place, and the Expert set has naval combat, sieges, and domain building, and the Companion set has mass battle rules.

What basic shows is that it can be done more cleanly and clearly than Advanced did it.  But it breaks it into three sets and I think new people get as intimidated by the great wall of books as any other facet of the game.

Where I do agree with Benoist is in that D&D offers a unique creative experience that should not play second fiddle to toys and teaching tools.

I'm not at all opposed to a proper Players Hand Book, DM's Guide (including miniatures rules for regimental movement, sieges, and naval battles of course), and Monster Manual for the existing market.  I don't want the current market abandoned or cast aside.  But I want the core to be the core and the advanced options to be modular and advanced.

What we disagree on is whether free form narrative play will convince new people to buy the game and give it a try.

And another thread has degenerated. There is less and less reason to come to this site anymore: good-faith discussion is no longer happening. :/

Yeah, a bit of a derailment, my bad.

Quote from: gleichman;645800Revisionism is strong with the OSR.

D&D was produced by a wargame company, it contained language and methods common to the wargames of the time and anyone from the period familar with TSR products would know that it wasn't intended to played without a map and miniatures of some type, indeed these were some of the first supporting products produced for the game line.

But you'll not win any brownie points with this crowd pointing such things out. Best to leave them with their illusions, worse case they'll do what the Forge did- wreck the next version of D&D.

Let them. It's the only way to learn.

If you ignore the fact that Gygax never used minis.

But ignoring things that don't fit your biases is a well formed habit of yours.

But those of us who didn't sit at his table can only go by what he wrote in the books.  It doesn't really matter what he did though because he was trying to sell the game to miniatures gamers.

Which I think is reasonable marketing strategy.

Warhammer is huge and has a huge market share that is based entirely on toy value.

If you have a beautiful hardbound D&D rule book sitting next to a big Warhammer starter box full of amazing miniatures with beautiful artwork and photos of the painted figures and the Warhammer box is twice the price of the D&D book most kids will want the Warhammer box.  Just go and look at the shelf space allocation in half a dozen gaming stores if you want some proof.

Now if you put the D&D in a big box with as much cool stuff for a bit less I think you'll do better.  Warhammer's a big name, sure, but so is Dungeons & Dragons.  I'm not saying the game should bend over and become a Warhammer clone.  I'm saying it should get in the ring and fight for its market share with every means at its disposal.  And when the rules are already there, the game is already fully capable of doing these things without becoming 4e (actually 4e was the worst version of D&D for handling mass battles) why on earth shouldn't it?