Quote from: Benoist;6454544e is a role playing game. It's bad one from my standpoint, it's not D&D, it's a game that steals left and right from MMOs, eurogames, and a whole bunch of other influences for the sake of being "hip" and "edgy" and fails so much it's pointless to reassess the thing all over again, but it's a role playing game nonetheless.

The MMO loving 4e crowd are the same people who are up in arms about being cheated out of gaming content by having to start at level 4 when every MMO I can think of has introductory levels where you really don't get any powers until level 5 or 10 or so (depending on the MMO).

The irony.  It is substantial.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;645459The MMO loving 4e crowd are the same people who are up in arms about being cheated out of gaming content by having to start at level 4 when every MMO I can think of has introductory levels where you really don't get any powers until level 5 or 10 or so (depending on the MMO).

The irony.  It is substantial.

There is some irony to that whole thing, like how a few years back it was all about "4e feels like old school, man, you can make up what you want, if you don't like this or that you can just change it and stuff, page 32 (?) of the DMG man!" and suddenly it's all "ZOMG! Starting at level 4, WTF? Dead levels and stuff and I shouldn't have to do this and you guys are grogTARDS!"

The truth points to itself.

Quote from: Mistwell;645452Oh, we're using BGG as the objective source for definitions? Cool.  4e is an RPG.  Guess that ends that.

BTW, the debate you're looking for? You're not going to find it from me.  4e is an RPG, and you don't like it, so you want to piss off it's fans by calling it not an RPG.  Cool, you go on with your juvenile self.  

But the moment you told a bunch of wargamer fans that they were playing boardgames, I think you lost whatever audience you might have started with.  It marked you as as a guy who doesn't know anything about the subject matter we're discussing.  While the three topics are related, boardgames are not wargames, and wargames are not rpgs, and rpgs are not boardgames.  The three are distinct but related categories of games.

I loves me some Axis and Allies, but I'm not that savvy with the nomenclature.  Would that be a boardgame or a wargame?

Quote from: Mistwell;645456WOTC made D&D themed board games, and D&D themed RPGs, and even at one point a D&D themed wargame.  Because they all have the D&D theme, this does not all make them one thing.  

Those board games in no way play like 4e.  They're using similar art, and names for some things, and most of the comparison ends there.  Some of them ARE, however, good board games from what I have heard.  I have yet to play any of the board games.

Now if they could just get 4E to quit quacking like a duck....

Quote from: Old One Eye;645466I loves me some Axis and Allies, but I'm not that savvy with the nomenclature.  Would that be a boardgame or a wargame?

Boardgame that falls under a subcategory of wargames, I'd say, as far as modern terms go.

Of course, there are also wargames wargames - the ones you use miniatures for. Or are those miniature games? Confusing stuff.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;645388...wow.

On the one hand, those actually seem kinda cool. Like an introduction to TTRPGs, almost.

On the other... that is pretty damning evidence for 4e being roughly equivalent to a board game.

Again, this is the "college textbook" sales model.

JG

Quote from: Mistwell;645452Oh, we're using BGG as the objective source for definitions? Cool.  4e is an RPG.  Guess that ends that.

BTW, the debate you're looking for? You're not going to find it from me.  4e is an RPG, and you don't like it, so you want to piss off it's fans by calling it not an RPG.  Cool, you go on with your juvenile self.  

But the moment you told a bunch of wargamer fans that they were playing boardgames, I think you lost whatever audience you might have started with.  It marked you as as a guy who doesn't know anything about the subject matter we're discussing.  While the three topics are related, boardgames are not wargames, and wargames are not rpgs, and rpgs are not boardgames.  The three are distinct but related categories of games.

You didn't answer for a third time:
For this discussion to go on and convince people on the merits of 4e's game design as a good roleplaying game and not a board game answer the following questions in tandem:

"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

Wotc might call 4e a roleplaying game, even it's fans, but it is a bad roleplaying game because as a game it is designed as a board game. The virtual tabletop board as the platform of the game and its rules was in mind when it was designed.

But why does this fact hurt you so much and you get so defensive is beyond me.

I always liked playing the Top Hat in MONOPOLY myself.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;645485I always liked playing the Top Hat in MONOPOLY myself.

JG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt6DzuL0S20

'THE HOUSES ARE PEOPLE'S HOMES!'

Quote from: xech;645484"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....I may be wayyyyy out here in like the back 40, but I would swear boardgames have a thing called a 'winner'.  If I understand this phenomenon correctly a 'winner' is the person or thing that has accrued the most "things"(things being points, money or some such that the boardgames uses to keep "score" with).

Quote from: Sommerjon;645589Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....I may be wayyyyy out here in like the back 40, but I would swear boardgames have a thing called a 'winner'.  If I understand this phenomenon correctly a 'winner' is the person or thing that has accrued the most "things"(things being points, money or some such that the boardgames uses to keep "score" with).

" As far as 4E being a board game, well, it is tough to argue against that when faced with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. "

Quote from: xech;645484"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

A definite board.

You know, like Candyland, where the board is always the same.  Or even if the board is somewhat randomized (like Settlers of Cataan?) the same definite repeating tiles mark it as a board game.  The players interact directly with the board itself...  

Since I like to use a mini-map when playing RPGs (not 4th edition), I resent the implication that having a board or map turns an RPG into a board game.

In a board game, the board defines the limits of the world.  In an RPG, the imagination of the players (including GM) define those limits.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;645603In a board game, the board defines the limits of the world.  In an RPG, the imagination of the players (including GM) define those limits.

What rules does 4e have to let players drive the game by their creative imagination in contrast to board or grid rules that define the limits of player and NPC actions? Does 4e, in its pages, provides for the customer to buy the former or the later? I believe the answer is pretty clear.

Are Milton Bradley's HeroQuest and Advanced HeroQuest board games, or role playing games?