Quote from: Mistwell;645274Everybody hear that? Wargames are boardgames.  Chainmail was a boardgame.  Hundreds of years of wargamers are all wrong, they were playing boardgames the whole time and just didn't know it.  Napolean? Fucking Euro Boardgamer.

You're an idiot Xech, and a troll.

Why so messed up?

Try to answer this question (asked some pages ago):
"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

Also, regarding your confusion and frustration about discussing the definition of wargames, hope this helps you out:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1019/wargame

Quote from: xech;645333Why so messed up?

Try to answer this question (asked some pages ago):
"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

Also, regarding your confusion and frustration about discussing the definition of wargames, hope this helps you out:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1019/wargame

Most boardgames like monopoly, catan, eurorails, whatever, have fairly specific goals. They seem quite limited and shallow compared to a campaign with an rpg.

Boardgames don't seem at all similar to rpg's to me.

There are a few boardgames with superficial similarity to some elements of an rpg, like Talisman or Titan.

But they feel very different to me.

Quote from: Bill;645339Most boardgames like monopoly, catan, eurorails, whatever, have fairly specific goals. They seem quite limited and shallow compared to a campaign with an rpg.

Boardgames don't seem at all similar to rpg's to me.

Neither to me. 4e rules do though a lot, and that is the matter with Mistwell here. Grid based rules of balanced encounters regarding the players and the obstacles. A game of mastering specific tactics. The goals of 4e are very specific for each player's character role and the player group. It's too focused a game to be considered a true rpg instead of anything else.

I have no experience playing 4th edition.  But I do have enough experience talking with people DO play it to know that the significant RPG elements still exist.

If it has a 'board game feel', that's pretty exclusively due to combat; which while a significant portion (even majority perhaps) of the game is not the entirety of the game.  

It is possible to play 4th edition and actually play an RPG with character motivations and all that jazz.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;645357I have no experience playing 4th edition.  But I do have enough experience talking with people DO play it to know that the significant RPG elements still exist.

If it has a 'board game feel', that's pretty exclusively due to combat; which while a significant portion (even majority perhaps) of the game is not the entirety of the game.  

It is possible to play 4th edition and actually play an RPG with character motivations and all that jazz.

There are some people invested in 4e. Nevertheless Wotc tried to sell this game of board combat as the next iteration of D&D to the fanbase and failed. For fans, a combat board game is what 4e offers instead of not buying the product at all or some previous iteration of d&d.

Quote from: xech;645352Neither to me. 4e rules do though a lot, and that is the matter with Mistwell here. Grid based rules of balanced encounters regarding the players and the obstacles. A game of mastering specific tactics. The goals of 4e are very specific for each player's character role and the player group. It's too focused a game to be considered a true rpg instead of anything else.

I play 1E, 3X, and 4E the same way. You don't even need to use maps and minis in any version. I personally like 1E best, then 4E, and distant last place is 3X. But I gm and play all of them the same way.

Quote from: Bill;645363I play 1E, 3X, and 4E the same way. You don't even need to use maps and minis in any version. I personally like 1E best, then 4E, and distant last place is 3X. But I gm and play all of them the same way.

To me, 4e rules are a total waste of time regarding roleplaying sword fighters & fragile wizards. If you do not play 4e as it is intended to be played (activating grid based actions that tend to depict something that resembles powers of fantasy superheroes but what really matters are the tactics of activating them) then this is a different matter entirely.

I've got to side with Xech here on this subject. While you can still role-play with 4E, it is primarily designed more like a tactical skirmish game. As far as 4E being a board game, well, it is tough to argue against that when faced with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this.

Quote from: jeff37923;645381I've got to side with Xech here on this subject. While you can still role-play with 4E, it is primarily designed more like a tactical skirmish game. As far as 4E being a board game, well, it is tough to argue against that when faced with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this.

...wow.

On the one hand, those actually seem kinda cool. Like an introduction to TTRPGs, almost.

On the other... that is pretty damning evidence for 4e being roughly equivalent to a board game.

Quote from: jeff37923;641227Considering that there has been nothing new besides the playtest of 5th for about the past year, it is actually kind of testament to the power of the D&D brand name. They have done nothing and still come in 3rd in sales.

That's my thought.

Quote from: Bill;645363I play 1E, 3X, and 4E the same way. You don't even need to use maps and minis in any version. I personally like 1E best, then 4E, and distant last place is 3X. But I gm and play all of them the same way.

Same thing here.  I play all rpgs the same.

Quote from: xech;645333Why so messed up?

Try to answer this question (asked some pages ago):
"What is a board game? What definite characteristics does a boardgame have that 4e doesn't share?"

Also, regarding your confusion and frustration about discussing the definition of wargames, hope this helps you out:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamecategory/1019/wargame

Oh, we're using BGG as the objective source for definitions? Cool.  4e is an RPG.  Guess that ends that.

BTW, the debate you're looking for? You're not going to find it from me.  4e is an RPG, and you don't like it, so you want to piss off it's fans by calling it not an RPG.  Cool, you go on with your juvenile self.  

But the moment you told a bunch of wargamer fans that they were playing boardgames, I think you lost whatever audience you might have started with.  It marked you as as a guy who doesn't know anything about the subject matter we're discussing.  While the three topics are related, boardgames are not wargames, and wargames are not rpgs, and rpgs are not boardgames.  The three are distinct but related categories of games.

4e is a role playing game. It's bad one from my standpoint, it's not D&D, it's a game that steals left and right from MMOs, eurogames, and a whole bunch of other influences for the sake of being "hip" and "edgy" and fails so much it's pointless to reassess the thing all over again, but it's a role playing game nonetheless.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;645388...wow.

On the one hand, those actually seem kinda cool. Like an introduction to TTRPGs, almost.

On the other... that is pretty damning evidence for 4e being roughly equivalent to a board game.

WOTC made D&D themed board games, and D&D themed RPGs, and even at one point a D&D themed wargame.  Because they all have the D&D theme, this does not all make them one thing.  

Those board games in no way play like 4e.  They're using similar art, and names for some things, and most of the comparison ends there.  Some of them ARE, however, good board games from what I have heard.  I have yet to play any of the board games.

Quote from: Mistwell;645456WOTC made D&D themed board games

Ditto. WOTC made D&D themed board games. It doesn't mean 4e is a board game. Now the tactical packs of miniatures on the other hand clearly show what the marketing focus is about, and therefore how the game is construed from that standpoint: a small-units miniatures role playing game, which does rub a lot of people the wrong way.