Quote from: RandallS;642862Also to casual players of any level of experience. I define casual players as those who aren't interested in reading (let alone studying and mastering) a lot of rules to create a character or to play the game. Selecting (in D&D terms) either a fighter, a cleric, a mage, or a thief requires much less rules knowledge and time than creating any of those characters with a skill-based system.

Once again, skill based systems use classes too. Levels and classes are not the same thing.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;642829I can think of some class systems without levels, but the converse is harder to come by; care to name some? I can only think of 2 of any significance, but one is sort of bad in character generation (d20 CoC), and the other is a bit of a stretch calling it level based (M&M).

It's probably more common in CRPGs. Skyrim and Fallout spring to mind.

Quote from: gleichman;642831Any game where creator creation using points is a level only game by another name. In HERO for example you can build a character with say 50 points. That could also be called a 50th level character.

Level is just a measurement system, any game that has one can be viewed in such terms.

I think when most people talk about a level system, they're talking about an explicitly levelled system, which has enough mechanical distinction to merit a distinct term.

Quote from: gleichman;642840Level is only a term that groups abilities. HERO has abilities and the point total group them.

We often as, "so what level characters for this campaign?"

And answer "75 points"

There's little magical about the term 'Level'. You're correct about common usage, but I think common usage blinds one to what it's actually doing.

ADDED: Age of Heroes has an unpublished classless Class that is basically just Level that I'm playing with for an expansion. Don't know if I will actually use it however.

I think M&M is about the nearest I've seen to a properly "leveled" point buy game, in that it caps *individual* powers based on level (rather than capping total power level). I'd have to think about where the line is drawn to really articulate it, as so far it's one of those "know it when I see it" things.

Quote from: The Traveller;642721What do levels even mean, the whole concept is an immersion breaker. Individual skills now, that makes sense.

Levels are be a package of abilities that you gain periodically as opposed to a little bit a time as with systems with only skill improvement for advancement.

After the use of templates and packages in GURPS and Hero System I consider Levels versus skill based design a question of preference rather than a flaw in a game's design. Levels based advancement is straightforward and easy for a novice gamers to grasp and use. Skill based designs are very flexible but the same flexibility can impose more prep work.

Quote from: estar;642874Levels based advancement is straightforward and easy for a novice gamers to grasp and use. Skill based designs are very flexible but the same flexibility can impose more prep work.

Skills based advancement is even easier to understand since you don't need to abstract anything. The amount of prep work depends on the amount of skills in use as well, not even the amount of skills in the game. GURPs is a classic example of just too much of everything. Yes I know you can trim it down to size but still.

Levels and classes are not connected in any way, everyone please stop confusing them.

How about skills & levels?

Is there anything where skill development and level advancement are independent from each other?

Arcanum by Bard Games allowed you to spend XP to gain skills from other classes instead of advancing levels in your current class.

I've only read the rules (about two years ago) and never played using them, so I'm murky on specifics, but I remember being struck by the system as being pretty damn clever.

Quote from: beejazz;642870I think when most people talk about a level system, they're talking about an explicitly levelled system, which has enough mechanical distinction to merit a distinct term.

No doubt that's true. But I think it's a mistake.

HERO for example not only has a Point Value for it's ranges, but OCV/DCV limits, active points in a power, SPD range, etc. It's a Level system in every meaning of the word except perhaps advancement (as they don't explictly address it) but even that's easily handled by the included guidelines.

I think a more open view of things could result in some interesting outcomes. Just a bit out of the box while keeping some of the lessons of what came before.

Quote from: One Horse Town;642880Is there anything where skill development and level advancement are independent from each other?

Depends upon what you mean by independent.

Completely unrelated as in there's not even a cap? Can't think of any off hand, it could be done but I'm not sure why you'd want to.

Or Independent in the sense that within the cap skills are developed on their own? Rolemaster, Age of Heroes, etc.

I mean the mechanism by which your skills improve not being directly linked to level advancement.

For example, in Rolemaster you improve your skills by spending development points gained upon going up a level - they are directly linked.

Quote from: KenHR;642881Arcanum by Bard Games allowed you to spend XP to gain skills from other classes instead of advancing levels in your current class.

I've only read the rules (about two years ago) and never played using them, so I'm murky on specifics, but I remember being struck by the system as being pretty damn clever.

Yes, it was also the same when the Talislanta game system was level-based (1st - 3rd editions); a character could use XP purchase a new level or could spend XP to purchase new skills or improve existing skills.

Quote from: One Horse Town;642890I mean the mechanism by which your skills improve not being directly linked to level advancement.

For example, in Rolemaster you improve your skills by spending development points gained upon going up a level - they are directly linked.

That's what I was thinking you meant. In Age of Heroes you have the *option* to spend additional XP above the required to earn the level to improve skills. But it's still capped by level and likely isn't what you're looking for.

It would be easy enough to break the link, and I can even see why one would want to....

But I can't think of any system that does.

Quote from: gleichman;642886No doubt that's true. But I think it's a mistake.

HERO for example not only has a Point Value for it's ranges, but OCV/DCV limits, active points in a power, SPD range, etc. It's a Level system in every meaning of the word except perhaps advancement (as they don't explictly address it) but even that's easily handled by the included guidelines.

I think a more open view of things could result in some interesting outcomes. Just a bit out of the box while keeping some of the lessons of what came before.

From what else I've heard of HERO, these caps sound roughly similar to M&M's power levels (in that they are a cap on individual powers, and especially numbers) which I think of as a hybrid according to the rules as written, but which lean even further towards levels in the rules as played (since it's in players' best interest to max a few things out, rather than dipping a few points in a lot of places).

I don't think the existence of hybrids invalidates the categories, and I do think people find reasons to hybridize things regardless of the terminology being used. It's not uncommon at all to see skills, levels, and featlike entities in the same system (in those closer to the level-based system). And if I'm understanding your comment on HERO, that's at least game number two with a level-like capping mechanism in an otherwise point buy system.

Quote from: RandallS;642862Also to casual players of any level of experience.

I agree, and that's a better way of phrasing what I meant.

Quote from: The Traveller;642721What do levels even mean, the whole concept is an immersion breaker. Individual skills now, that makes sense.

My solution is to have levels in the game world, known to PC's and NPC's alike, sort of like having a college degree credential or being an x-degree mason or black-belt or whatever.  This shouldn't work -- it ought to render the game a lame joke, but in my experience, it seems to work fine.

I have a theory about this, but it's long winded.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: -E.;642908My solution is to have levels in the game world, known to PC's and NPC's alike, sort of like having a college degree credential or being an x-degree mason or black-belt or whatever.  This shouldn't work -- it ought to render the game a lame joke, but in my experience, it seems to work fine.

I have a theory about this, but it's long winded.

Make a thread about it!