Quote from: ostap bender;637695so what? what does that have to do with anything?

Ask JRT - he's leading the apologist charge by claiming those who disagree with Maliszewski are 'jealous' of his 'fame.'

And please, guys, be sure to keep calling that disagreement 'hate,' 'cause you definitely want to keep flashing that mopey middle-schooler cred.

Quote from: Cadriel;637724The weird thing about all of it is that James did, under continual prodding from Tavis, actually put together a Word document that is a draft of the dungeon Dwimmermount. And it's mediocre. An unambitious dungeon more concerned with showing off to the DM reading it that there is history to the place, than presenting a lively and interesting play environment. It's not epic bad or anything like that, it's just a long and fairly tedious module.

It's consciously vanilla. Plus, James set out to make the archetypal 1970s megadungeon, but forgot the same thing a lot of dust-worshippers tend to forget: the dynamism and sense of covering new ground which was present in the works he produced a carbon copy of.

Uh, no Black Vulema.

I did not say every criticism of James was based on Jealousy.  You seem to be thinking everything I say is directed at you, but its not.   I have said that I think some people are jealous.

Just disliking James or making a criticism is okay, however, there are people who are taking this way too far.  Guys like IRWS or the site YDIS have been obsessed with attacking him, in a way that goes way beyond the Dwimmermoumt issue or just a simple dislike.  So, yes, I do think there are some people who truly hate James and/or are Jealous.  I never said all people who criticize him are or that alll people who do hate him.  But its clear these people do exist.

Whether you value blogs or not, personally I don't any longer but I once did, it would do to remember that James Maliszewski is responsible for the existence of about 95% of osr blogs by his example. In the early days, say around 2009-2010, I found his blog very useful before it became repetitive.

wrt Dwimmermount, my guess is he suffered from a form of stagefright at some point realising his own work wasn't particularly good, loathed the idea of finishing it and affected too by life events became depressed.

Dwimmermount isn't bad. Is it great? Hell no. But out of 10, I'd give it a 7.

I honestly think that a lot of OSR fans simply like OSR because they have ADD. They can't stand to read more than a simple rulebook and this also extends to the games they play - everything has to be over the top, with immediate gratification.

Yeesh this isn't some intricate long-term plan to rip people off, it's just a clusterfuck, if you add up the word count of the Dwimmermount draft and all of the blog posts he did that built up his reputation to the point that he could've gotten $50k from a kickstarter that'd be a pretty pathetic word rate.

I was pretty sympathetic about the work being (very very late) half of the issue. I'm much less sympathetic about the not paying people element of things. I do my share of freelancing (not in the RPG industry thank god) and few things make my blood boil like not getting paid for work I've done so that's drained away my sympathy pretty effectively.

There's plenty of excuses for not being able to do work, many fewer excuses for not being able to cut a check and turn the money over to the Autarch people so they can make things right.

Quote from: Melan;637805It's consciously vanilla. Plus, James set out to make the archetypal 1970s megadungeon, but forgot the same thing a lot of dust-worshippers tend to forget: the dynamism and sense of covering new ground which was present in the works he produced a carbon copy of.

Yeah, but what's surprising to me is how badly he got it wrong. Greyhawk, which IMO is the archetypal 1970s megadungeon, is notable because of how weird and fantastical it was at the deeper levels - precisely the opposite of the 10-story mound of vanilla that is Dwimmermount. There's nothing wrong with vanilla, but you can't build an entire megadungeon out of it. The point of a "tentpole" megadungeon is precisely that it has enough variety to keep the interest of a group of players for a long period of time, and I just don't think Dwimmermount has that.

This really just seems like a massive fuckup from the ground up. I hope something positive comes out of this.

I think in regards to him getting favors or whatever, its just a matter of rpgs in general not living up to expectations and there being a desire to return to the big games of yesterday at any cost. The desire is there but the vehicle isn't. Name one thing to "fund" or whatever that is really going to "bring on the funk". It just doesn't exist. So they looked to this guy for answers that he didn't have. I honestly seemed to be the only one who loudly proclaimed that at day one but I also believe Zeb Cook is Satan. If we look at this with close inspection, even Gygax, a ground-breaking man steeped in historical detail and S&S fiction, didn't deliver a latter day "save" how could some guy like the Grognardia blogger who is rooted in the problematic latter rpg industry (weak text drift, "pseudo-historical narratives", etc.) do any better? Its dead business. Thats why I've begged for a true outside-the-box convention based on discussions with no games over and over but it always seemed not even worth it. I think its because its easier to throw away money thinking someone else is going to cure the problem.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;637795Ask JRT - he's leading the apologist charge by claiming those who disagree with Maliszewski are 'jealous' of his 'fame.'

And please, guys, be sure to keep calling that disagreement 'hate,' 'cause you definitely want to keep flashing that mopey middle-schooler cred.

You're jealous of JRT's mad analyzing skills.  Why do you hate JRT?

Quote from: JRT;637815Uh, no Black Vulema.

OK, now I want my swashbuckling campaign to focus on Italian merchants vs. pirates of the Barbary Coast, who are led by a mysterious figure known only as the Black Ulema.

Quote from: Mistwell;637841You're jealous of JRT's mad analyzing skills.  Why do you hate JRT?

I know this isn't directed at me but if I was to answer that I'd say I don't even know who he is. There seemed to be an ongoing association with Gary Gygax but I've been going so long with no idea what that is specifically (Editor??? ) that I've a feeling of loss in regards to the title "JRT". Frankly, I feel closer to Monte Cook's crap even though its weak at best but at least I know that he wrote it and I dislike it. If I knew specifically what this guy did I think I'd have some kind of judgement otherwise he is just some guy who shows up whenever "GYGAX" is written on the internet. Like or dislike, though, he is fucking tenacious! You've got to give him that at least. Its like a verbal component for a fucking teleporting contingency spell... GYGAX.... ZAP!!!! What I want to know is the why. Why does he dislike Gary so much if he continually wants to be associated with him? I don't understand what the drive is but I do understand it hasn't helped much ever. There are three Gygax things going now: 1) GYGAX GAMES, 2) GYGAX MAGAZINE and 3) GYGAX JRT. Frankly, I don't understand why the latter. If you could explain then I'd get it. Whats his epitaph going to be? "Well Known Gary Gygax Haranguing Employee"? At least, my rpg bullshit was on his side half the time. JRT seems technically on his side always but would rather be shoulder to shoulder elsewhere.

If he's defending Maliszewski because I'm of opposite opinion making remarks here and elsewhere... well... I participated in Grognardia comments early on so what do you got to say about that? Goddamn it! Fuck these backers! Lets give ol' Jim a pat on the back... <<>>

Gene, I am certainly not participating in the thread because of you--I made comments before you participated here.  I'm not sure what my statements elsewhere about Gygax, etc., have anything to do with this.

And just to be clear once again, I am not defending James, as I feel with the new facts coming to light that he is shirking his responsibility, even under what might be pressing circumstances for him.  

All I was getting at was I dislike the "witch hunt" attitude some of his detractors have about this situation.  (And before any body jumps on me, I'm not targeting anybody currently in this thread.)

Quote from: Gene Weigel;637871I know this isn't directed at me but if I was to answer that I'd say I don't even know who he is. There seemed to be an ongoing association with Gary Gygax but I've been going so long with no idea what that is specifically (Editor??? ) that I've a feeling of loss in regards to the title "JRT". Frankly, I feel closer to Monte Cook's crap even though its weak at best but at least I know that he wrote it and I dislike it. If I knew specifically what this guy did I think I'd have some kind of judgement otherwise he is just some guy who shows up whenever "GYGAX" is written on the internet. Like or dislike, though, he is fucking tenacious! You've got to give him that at least. Its like a verbal component for a fucking teleporting contingency spell... GYGAX.... ZAP!!!! What I want to know is the why. Why does he dislike Gary so much if he continually wants to be associated with him? I don't understand what the drive is but I do understand it hasn't helped much ever. There are three Gygax things going now: 1) GYGAX GAMES, 2) GYGAX MAGAZINE and 3) GYGAX JRT. Frankly, I don't understand why the latter. If you could explain then I'd get it. Whats his epitaph going to be? "Well Known Gary Gygax Haranguing Employee"? At least, my rpg bullshit was on his side half the time. JRT seems technically on his side always but would rather be shoulder to shoulder elsewhere.

If he's defending Maliszewski because I'm of opposite opinion making remarks here and elsewhere... well... I participated in Grognardia comments early on so what do you got to say about that? Goddamn it! Fuck these backers! Lets give ol' Jim a pat on the back... <<>>

Gene, I miss the days when you were actually coherent. Oh, and 2e rocks, suckah!

Maybe this is a delicate question due to copyright, "Piracy", Dwimmermount's odd status as a twilight product neither dead nor alive, the emotions and money tied up in this, etc...

...But is the rough 1st draft word document version of DM that certain people are remixing, modding, and cut-and-pasting to create their own alternate Dwimmermounts available online anywhere?