Quote from: Blackhand;626010Happens every time.  It's like I told them their girlfriends were ugly bitches and then with a straight face danced the robot while looking them dead in the eye.

Well, in a way you did. It's hard to overstate how important this is to them.

You and I *must* be wrong, or they lose value. Where you and I only claim that their style is something we dislike and don't respect- they claim that ours is impossible.

That's the house of cards they stand on. So any breeze is a threat.

The way some people go on, you'd think Blackhand had come round to their house and forced them to game his way with a gun held to their head.

Likewise, you'd think that Blackhand and Gleichman are under some delusion (shared by many a Goon, i might add) that this forum is a person. The RPGsite thinks this and theRPGsite thinks that. They do this, they think that.

Neither is true. Neither is constructive. Neither actually helps the OP in any way.

Why don't you get the players that have piped up here to post their thoughts on how to improve things - or, you know, cut out us middle-men and have the conversation face to face.

Quote from: One Horse Town;626021Likewise, you'd think that Blackhand and Gleichman are under some delusion (shared by many a Goon, i might add) that this forum is a person. The RPGsite thinks this and theRPGsite thinks that. They do this, they think that.

I have found that to be the case more than not. Just count how many here are dog-piling Blackhand compare to how many are defending him.

Therpgsite is like all forums self-selecting in membership, and like attracts like. I can count the number of meaningful exceptions on my fingers. Those exceptions are important (to me), but they stand out as the exceptions they are.

Quote from: One Horse Town;626021The way some people go on, you'd think Blackhand had come round to their house and forced them to game his way with a gun held to their head.

Likewise, you'd think that Blackhand and Gleichman are under some delusion (shared by many a Goon, i might add) that this forum is a person. The RPGsite thinks this and theRPGsite thinks that. They do this, they think that.

Neither is true. Neither is constructive. Neither actually helps the OP in any way.

Why don't you get the players that have piped up here to post their thoughts on how to improve things - or, you know, cut out us middle-men and have the conversation face to face.

I'm sorry, I don't mean EVERY single person on this forum is such a goon.  I like most of the folks, that's why I spend so much time reading all the threads. I genuinely enjoy this place, its my favorite forum on the web.

When I say "they" I mean those folks here in this thread attacking me for some such reason or another.  When one quits working, they just roll out another.

You're very right, neither is constructive.

I've been in communication with lots of my players through this week, and they have been watching.  A lot don't spend so much time crawling this forum but I'm trying to alleviate that by creating threads that directly relate to this game.  Many don't want to fight the trolls, and are discouraged from attempting a discourse.  They wonder why I bother to do so.

Yet pretty much, they have already brought up those thoughts earlier in the thread.  Not every single one of my players has created an account here, only about five...but they have all read the conversations I've had with you guys over the years.

In fact, I start a lot of sessions with "on theRPGsite they talked about this item this week, and here's how we are going to apply this".  I take a lot away from this forum every day.

I'd hate for folks to think otherwise.

Quote from: Warthur;625822I think Blackhand and his group are being genuine - it's just that they have a very specific internal culture which 100% works for them but looks odd from outside, especially if the internal culture of your own gaming scene is very different. (For instance, they seem to be really against homebrew systems or deviating from RAW or improvising adventures on the fly, which runs directly against the preferences of more or less all the groups I've ever played with.)

You're correct in that assessment. It may be a very specific internal culture that we have, but we all agree this is the best way for our group to play. We have tried different styles of play, and for us as long as the rules are solid and aren't changed with the whims of the GM then we are happy. I said before and I'll say again, the mistakes our characters make in game should have consequences. We don't want our GMs to fudge the dice rolls or prevent us from learning from our mistakes. Not that we always learn!

Quote from: Imperator;625945That is what I think, and I seem to recall that he said that they are a wargames club and they play RPGs like they play wargames: by the book, impartial referee, etc. Of course, I understand why it can be weird for many gamers outside their club, and I have no problem with it, they seem to be rocking and perfectly happy with their games. I think I would be able to play in one of their games without a problem, as they seem to be pretty hardcore inmersionists. I dunno why everyone gets so upset.

You sir totally get it! I personally am of the mindset of to each his own. I don't like storytelling games so I don't want to play them. I likes me some rules! But if it works for another club/group I don't really care what anyone else does.

Quote from: Fiasco;626009Sorry dude, running Riund with 19 str characters who have double specialized with weapons is about as munchkin as you can get in 1E. Most of us around here don't like munchkins much like your group doesn't like female gamers.

The fact that ToE has chewed up your munchkins and spat them out makes it all the more amusing.

We aren't munchkins, and we don't mind female gamers at all. As a matter of fact we have had female gamers in the group, but they usually find other things to do or just end up not that interested after a while.

I don't think it is strange for a character to specialize in a weapon. As a matter of fact it makes a lot of sense. I could know how to use three or four weapons sort of well, or I take my time training and learning how to use one very well. Now I'm a sword master instead of just a fighter that can use a couple more weapons with no penalties.

And the 19 str is because we got lucky enough to roll an 18 and our race bonus was +1 str, but it wasn't actually 19 cause it restricted us to 18/75 which is close enough!

Quote from: gleichman;626016You and I *must* be wrong, or they lose value. Where you and I only claim that their style is something we dislike and don't respect- they claim that ours is impossible.

Last I check, you were the one claiming running a game in a consistent manner without miniatures or visual aids to track the movement of the characters was impossible. We'd be either lying, or delusional.

Or are you saying it is possible to play a consistent game without the aid of visual representations whatsoever and you somehow got it wrong this many times previously?

Quote from: Benoist;626060Last I check, you were the one claiming running a game in a consistent manner without miniatures or visual aids to track the movement of the characters was impossible. We'd be either lying, or delusional.

Or are you saying it is possible to play a consistent game without the aid of visual representations whatsoever and you somehow got it wrong this many times previously?

What exactly are you talking about?

Quote from: Benoist;626060Last I check, you were the one claiming running a game in a consistent manner without miniatures or visual aids to track the movement of the characters was impossible. We'd be either lying, or delusional.

Or are you saying it is possible to play a consistent game without the aid of visual representations whatsoever and you somehow got it wrong this many times previously?

No I stand by the original statement. Consistent and accurate resolution of complex conditions by the typical gamer is not possible without a map and minis (or their equal).

What is possible is for people to deny the reality of what they are doing, and to have fun doing things even if what they are doing is incorrect in the details. Thus games can be played that don't use maps and minis.

Quote from: jeff37923;625996And yet your group has still been dissolved due to your lack of DM skills.

Maybe you should stick to wargames?

If you mean that the player's group has split up, you are wrong. Blackhand's been talking about PCs, not players. Several players of his have commented here that they're happy with the game.

Quote from: One Horse Town;626021The way some people go on, you'd think Blackhand had come round to their house and forced them to game his way with a gun held to their head.

Yeah, it baffles me.

Quote from: Malphaeus;626034You're correct in that assessment. It may be a very specific internal culture that we have, but we all agree this is the best way for our group to play. We have tried different styles of play, and for us as long as the rules are solid and aren't changed with the whims of the GM then we are happy. I said before and I'll say again, the mistakes our characters make in game should have consequences. We don't want our GMs to fudge the dice rolls or prevent us from learning from our mistakes. Not that we always learn!

Sounds perfectly OK for me.

Well, we have this.

Quote from: gleichman;626016You and I *must* be wrong, or they lose value. Where you and I only claim that their style is something we dislike and don't respect- they claim that ours is impossible.

And then this.

Quote from: gleichman;626076Consistent and accurate resolution of complex conditions by the typical gamer is not possible without a map and minis (or their equal).

What is possible is for people to deny the reality of what they are doing, and to have fun doing things even if what they are doing is incorrect in the details. Thus games can be played that don't use maps and minis.

Who's telling whom their style is impossible to play as they claim they are playing it?

You are, Brian.

QED.

Quote from: Imperator;626089If you mean that the player's group has split up, you are wrong. Blackhand's been talking about PCs, not players. Several players of his have commented here that they're happy with the game.

I meant that the PC group had dissolved.

Quote from: jeff37923;626097I meant that the PC group had dissolved.

Well, in that case I don't think it has nothing to do with Blackhand's GMing skills. It seems that the players have created incompatible PCs and they are just roleplaying them.

Quote from: gleichman;626076No I stand by the original statement. Consistent and accurate resolution of complex conditions by the typical gamer is not possible without a map and minis (or their equal).

What is possible is for people to deny the reality of what they are doing, and to have fun doing things even if what they are doing is incorrect in the details. Thus games can be played that don't use maps and minis.

Quote from: Benoist;626093Who's telling whom their style is impossible to play as they claim they are playing it?

You are, Brian.

QED.

He didn't say you can't play that way, he is just pointing out that what you say happens sometimes can't be represented properly in a real physical sense; consistently.

Quote from: Imperator;626100Well, in that case I don't think it has nothing to do with Blackhand's GMing skills. It seems that the players have created incompatible PCs and they are just roleplaying them.

You do understand that I am trolling Blackhand over his inflexibility as a GM, right?