Quote from: mcbobbo;625171Speaking of death - I thought this was D&D.  Don't they have mitigations available for that?

Not these characters, at this level, at this point in the scenario.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;625179Thing of it is, that should never be left unspoken. It should be explained by the referee right from the giddyup at chargen.

That's a good point.

That is something that has been discussed in all my games from the outset, and every time someone generates a character.

Well, if you're planning to stick 100% within the bounds of the module and not include elements present within the larger Greyhawk milieu, then really your only recourse is to reboot, have players come up with more motivated characters and hope the death count doesn't rise to the point where having yet another "hero" randomly showing up becomes silly.

Quote from: Blackhand;624959I think a huge part of the problem is that there are expectations placed upon character ability.

Think about it, we play RaW...by every single game.

I always laugh when people claim to play AD&D RAW. How do do initiative and surprise?

Of course with BlackHand we can safely assume he is a long way from RAW as the following gem indicates:

Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.

K?

That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11.  Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.

No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.

Quote from: Fiasco;625216I always laugh when people claim to play AD&D RAW. How do do initiative and surprise?

Umm...by the book?  I've been asked this question before, and we have discussed it.  Use ADDICT and you really can't fuck it up.

Basically, initiative is rolled for the party.  Surprise is also one roll, and all that finaggly stuff in the rulebook is about what can happen during the surprise round.

I always laugh when people claim you can't play AD&D RaW, because I do it with a lot of other people every single week.

Quote from: Fiasco;625216Of course with BlackHand we can safely assume he is a long way from RAW as the following gem indicates:

Quote from: Blackhand;612180Two of my players, with mediocre scores, managed to get +7 to hit, +11 to damage at first level, with 3 attacks every 2 rounds.

K?

That means, they need 3+ to hit AC -1 at L11.  Bastard sword does 3d6 (+11) damage to large creatures.

No, it's not a great and powerful monster as it should be, that's why they've been consistently beefed up with every edition.

All that you do by bringing this up is indicate how ignorant of the rules you are.  I'm not even sure what you mean by this, I can only assume that you mean to intimate that I can't do the basic math of the game.  I'll clarify that little "gem" for you.

How do you get those stats?

Double Specialization grants +3 to hit, +3 to damage.
Exceptional Strength of 19 (yes, Korobokuru from OA before you ask) grants +3 to hit, +7 to damage.
Bastard Sword +1 (random magic for starting, rolled well - this is the only thing I 'gave' the player and it was mostly random) adds +1 to hit, +1 damage and does 3d6 damage to large creatures.

All that comes to +7 to hit, +11 to damage.  3d6 +11 for large creatures.

A 1st level fighter hits AC -1 on 20 assuming the creature does not wear armor.  An 11th level fighter hits AC -1 on an 11.

So you're right, my math was off. This Bushi at L11 will require 4+ to hit AC -1, if he could get that far.  I calculated that example as if he were human.  Since he can only hit L6, he needs a 10+ (to hit AC -1 at L6 requires a 17).

Quote from: Blackhand;625242Umm...by the book?  I've been asked this question before, and we have discussed it.  Use ADDICT and you really can't fuck it up.

Basically, initiative is rolled for the party.  Surprise is also one roll, and all that finaggly stuff in the rulebook is about what can happen during the surprise round.

I always laugh when people claim you can't play AD&D RaW, because I do it with a lot of other people every single week.





All that you do by bringing this up is indicate how ignorant of the rules you are.  I'm not even sure what you mean by this, I can only assume that you mean to intimate that I can't do the basic math of the game.  I'll clarify that little "gem" for you.

How do you get those stats?

Double Specialization grants +3 to hit, +3 to damage.
Exceptional Strength of 19 (yes, Korobokuru from OA before you ask) grants +3 to hit, +7 to damage.
Bastard Sword +1 (random magic for starting, rolled well - this is the only thing I 'gave' the player and it was mostly random) adds +1 to hit, +1 damage and does 3d6 damage to large creatures.

All that comes to +7 to hit, +11 to damage.  3d6 +11 for large creatures.

A 1st level fighter hits AC -1 on 20 assuming the creature does not wear armor.  An 11th level fighter hits AC -1 on an 11.

So you're right, my math was off. This Bushi at L11 will require 4+ to hit AC -1, if he could get that far.  I calculated that example as if he were human.  Since he can only hit L6, he needs a 10+ (to hit AC -1 at L6 requires a 17).

I'm just gonna quote the whole lot again so all can witness the glorious shitness.

Btw nice house rule on the bastard sword. They do 2d8 vs large if your are playing RAW.

Reading that eye sore of a character I really think you guys are playing the wrong edition. I'm also amazed that 18 such players managed to die. Something does not smell right here.

Quote from: Blackhand;625091I have a certain baseline set of precepts to uphold, and I won't be seen doing otherwise.  

• The rules must be adjudicated RaW.
• I must not make up shit as I go along.
• I must let the dice fall where they may.
• I must stay true to the scenario and referee it as written.
• If I make adjustments to the scenario, they will be written into it before the session starts.
• All such adjustments must be within the purview of the scenario.

I think the tripping point for a lot of us here is probably point 2 up there. For me, having the capacity to improvise and make shit up as you go along is a vital GMly skill. Even if you absolutely stay on-script, I don't think ToEE has detailed character dialogue and fully detailed combat tactics for every single encounter so you have to fill the blanks even when things are all going according to the module's expectations. And what do you do when the players do something unexpected which, whilst being entirely within the spirit of tackling the scenario, at the same time falls entirely outside the expectations of both the scenarios and the rules? (My players can be guaranteed to do this at least once every two or three sessions.) Do you stop the session so you can have some downtime to write a plan for how to adjudicate it so that you don't commit the terrible sin of improvisation?

Quote from: Fiasco;625249Btw nice house rule on the bastard sword. They do 2d8 vs large if your are playing RAW.

You're right. Reviewing the character sheets, I got the character with the two handed sword and the one with the bastard sword mixed up.  That is, I got it mixed up while arguing with fools like you here on the forum, where I can get worked up and don't always double check minutiae.

That doesn't mean my entire campaign is circumspect.

Do you have anything else to add?  Or are these little jibs the best you can do?

Quote from: Warthur;625250I think the tripping point for a lot of us here is probably point 2 up there. For me, having the capacity to improvise and make shit up as you go along is a vital GMly skill. Even if you absolutely stay on-script, I don't think ToEE has detailed character dialogue and fully detailed combat tactics for every single encounter so you have to fill the blanks even when things are all going according to the module's expectations. And what do you do when the players do something unexpected which, whilst being entirely within the spirit of tackling the scenario, at the same time falls entirely outside the expectations of both the scenarios and the rules? (My players can be guaranteed to do this at least once every two or three sessions.) Do you stop the session so you can have some downtime to write a plan for how to adjudicate it so that you don't commit the terrible sin of improvisation?

No, the tripping point on #2 is that none of you seem to listen when I explain that.  I've done it approximately 1,000,000 times, but I'll do it once more just for you, Zardoz.

What you are implying here (and being deliberately obtuse in doing so) is that what I mean by "making stuff" up applies to characters and actions described in the scenario.  I don't mean that I can't decide that Zert leaves town to go to Nulb to join the mercenaries when he leaves the players' party. *This actually happened in this game*

Yes, I decide what they do based on what information the scenario has given me.  What I mean by "making shit up as I go" is deciding when the players open a certain door what is in there.  When you do that, it skews the game either in the player's favor (more often than not), but sometimes it skews the game in the favor of the player's enemies.

Why would you bring this up?  Of course I improvise most dialogue, but I don't decide random things that might help the player exist when they do not.  Likewise, I don't invent hurdles that aren't in the scenario either.  No, I don't spontaneously decide Jaroo can cast Heal, or that Terjon can Raise Dead.

I have a small notebook I keep track of all changes to the scenario, and I use that to adjudicate the actions of all NPC's based on the information given in the scenario - which I'm sorry, TToEE has in spades.  Way more than enough for me to work with.  Also, there is detailed combat information given in almost every single encounter space.

What do I do when they do something unexpected?  They do that shit all the time!  I take a moment to review the target area and decide how things work out, but I'll be honest...there's not much they can do to shake me up.  

Go on.  Ask 'em.  They are here.  Two have made themselves known already, the others are lurking quietly and laughing at many of the responses that hate on me.  A lot of the comments on any thread I post on are absolutely off-base character attacks.

I'm on top of this particular scenario, and there are a lot of moving parts.  I'm pretty sure I've proven consistently to my group that I'm up to this particular challenge.

Don't posit items for me to prove this to you, as like I said some of my players are here and I don't want to provide any spoilers.  If you have an item of interest from T1, I'll be glad to hear you out and I'll tell you exactly what happens.  If you read our log, you'll see that we have plenty of unique stuff happening.

No, I don't have to stop the session, I only have to skim the few paragraphs relating to that area IF they do something I don't expect.  It takes less time than it takes for the players to realize that's what I'm doing.

Your entire above post ignores much of what I've said before, and you imply I'm a terrible DM who can't improvise.  

Improvisation within the scenario is required of all games.

Making shit up as you go is not, and is a totally different thing.

I apologise for not having read all your posts.

I apologise again if this has been explained previously, but what's with the goofy text colours? I'm parsing your post at the moment but I don't want to jump to any conclusions about what you're saying in case there's nuances to your choice of text colour I'm not aware of.

Quote from: Warthur;625274I apologise for not having read all your posts.

I apologise again if this has been explained previously, but what's with the goofy text colours? I'm parsing your post at the moment but I don't want to jump to any conclusions about what you're saying in case there's nuances to your choice of text colour I'm not aware of.

It's to draw attention to areas of the text for people who are skimming, which they are obviously doing.

Apologies for any confusion.

Quote from: Malphaeus;624907Just so you know, I wasn't going for the money. I was trying to retrieve the body of my older brother! We had left Hambone down there I wasn't gonna leave another brother to that cursed place.

I wouldnt have left you either for the record

Quote from: Malphaeus;625004Actually, it still fits within the framework of Lawful Evil. He was being evil by keeping all the money to himself and not telling anyone about it. He was the one in charge of divvying up the treasure and most of the time he would divvy out some loot (Keyword: some). Sometimes not. I'm sure his "share" of the loot we did collect was much larger than our own.

As long as he wasn't caught, he wasn't breaking the law. Just bending the rules.

For the record... After I became leader I signed on new recruits under the premise of payment after our quest inside the temple was completed... No one complained or said No. With the great death toll I (IC) saw little reason to divy up as most times characters died and were unrecovered.

Also... I embezzled nothing from our coffers, but I also saw no point in selling stuff to the Homlett traders when they were price gougers. Greyhawk City at that point seemed a better place to peddle wares for profit.

As far as motivation inside the party Me and Ganth had ours and recruited characters as so needed. Now that we are gone there isnt alot of ties left for the remaining group. Rough spot to have to die in but no hard feelings thats how the dice roll. RAW is cruel and cold but Its how we've played for a long time.

Im looking forward to my new character...

Quote from: Blackhand;625266Go on.  Ask 'em.  They are here.  Two have made themselves known already, the others are lurking quietly and laughing at many of the responses that hate on me.  A lot of the comments on any thread I post on are absolutely off-base character attacks.

So if you're doing everything right, and everyone is happy, what kind of circle jerk is this thread?

Quote from: mcbobbo;625332So if you're doing everything right, and everyone is happy, what kind of circle jerk is this thread?

Apparently the kind where it gets off track very quickly for some reason.

From the OP:

Quote from: Blackhand;624799What do you think?  Is dissolution the only answer?

What reason could they possibly come up with that wouldn't stretch belief?  

• For money?  There's no evidence of any money out there, only a fuck ton of murdering fucks.
• For love?  They barely know each other, the group of survivors that had been recruiting new adventurers are all dead!
• For revenge?  The only folks they know killed by the servants of the temple are their employers.  Can't really call any of the characters friends, and this is their own choice.

Can you have a nearby ruler send some of his knights into the dungeon/ temple/ wherever you are (not very familiar with ToEE, sorry), get them killed, notice that there's an adventuring group in the area that has ventured on the quest he sent his knights to do, and then offer to re-employ the PCs to deal with the threat? (For ruler substitute wizard/ crime boss/ priest/ whatever's interesting, if desired)

Quote from: Looter Guy;625303I wouldnt have left you either for the record



For the record... After I became leader I signed on new recruits under the premise of payment after our quest inside the temple was completed... No one complained or said No. With the great death toll I (IC) saw little reason to divy up as most times characters died and were unrecovered.

Also... I embezzled nothing from our coffers, but I also saw no point in selling stuff to the Homlett traders when they were price gougers. Greyhawk City at that point seemed a better place to peddle wares for profit.

As far as motivation inside the party Me and Ganth had ours and recruited characters as so needed. Now that we are gone there isnt alot of ties left for the remaining group. Rough spot to have to die in but no hard feelings thats how the dice roll. RAW is cruel and cold but Its how we've played for a long time.

Im looking forward to my new character...

I know you wouldn't have left me either. When Hambone was left we both felt terrible, that was our mistake. It's good to know there was no embezzlement too!

Judging by PC alignments and past history body count, they'd have absolutely no reason to continue. They've seen no benefit, they've plundered no loot, and the only thing awaiting them is death if they enter.

Like was said earlier, the Temple won. They ain't strong enough to take it down.

You've got a bunch of disassociated PCs and you wonder why they should stick together? The question isn't that hard. If you're trying this hard to come up with a reason, the reason is 'fuck off, let's go get some ice cream and be done with it.'

As it stands, you don't have a party. You have a group of greedy individuals. You need a party to take down the Temple. Your PCs have gone past the point of party. There's no longer a soluble way to form a party unless everyone starts from scratch.

So tell them to go reroll a party that acts as a cohesive party and try again if they're so intent on kicking the temple's ass.