So, with two weeks left, GoblinWorks would still need about $460k to fund their Pathfinder MMO:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo?ref=live

I posted this in this forum, because I'm wondering, how much money has Paizo put into this, and could it have any adverse effect on the company as a whole? They are closely related with GoblinWorks somehow, I believe. If this goes south, how much resources have already been dedicated to this MMO?

It seems like Paizo is pushing really hard on this MMO, and I'm just not sure they're going to get it done. I also wonder if they sort of milked their folks dry with this previous Kickstarter.

I think the whole reason they set up Goblinworks was so they could separate themselves (Paizo) from it when/if it flopped.

But the KS is apparently only to make the game faster, supposed they secured enough funding to make it via showing some mysterious secret investors the tech demo they made from the last KS.

QuoteNo.  Most of the budget is being provided by our initial investors, but the money we're raising on Kickstarter is the difference between a 4 year development plan and a much faster, much larger plan.  

I remain profoundly mixed about the Kickstarter.  Baldur's Gate showed it was POSSIBLE to make a computer game based off of table top RPGs and have it work well.  But, most of the time, I see the trade offs between the two mediums as being quite different.  TT-RPGs have to make a GM work and have a lot of room for open ended thinking.  Computer games need to reward play as it happens.  

I worry that being good at a TT-RPG is no prediction about being good at a MMO.

(1) this thread is about the PF MMO. It's not traditional tabletop RPGs, therefore, it should be in Other Games.

(2) my problem with the kickstarter is exactly that: it's an MMO, and I will not fund Ryan's idea that somehow tabletop RPGs can't survive without going MMOs, or that the two mediums are actually comparable to begin with. It's part of what's wrong with the current RPG design culture, to me, and I will not support that.

Quote from: JeremyR;613088I think the whole reason they set up Goblinworks was so they could separate themselves (Paizo) from it when/if it flopped.

But the KS is apparently only to make the game faster, supposed they secured enough funding to make it via showing some mysterious secret investors the tech demo they made from the last KS.

But looking at this from a tabletop point of view, I wonder if it's being pursued to enhance the TTRPG itself, or part of a larger diversification, where the company eventually goes away from pen & paper. With Mr. Dancey involved, I wonder if that's a possibility.

Ryan Dancey has gone from champion to doomsayer and while I can't blame him (he's a businessman and he damn well should think like one), I think he did bite off more than he can chew now. If this thing doesn't get funded, what's he going to do? What happens to the folks who backed the first Kickstarter?

It seems multiple stages of crowdfunding sort of defeat the purpose of crowdfunding in the first place. Here's hoping this doesn't end badly for either side of the bargain.

The fact that it is being done as a kickstarter makes me quite skeptical. Tey might well finish it, but it doesnt fill with me confidence that it will be 1) good quality 2) succesful

Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;613190The fact that it is being done as a kickstarter makes me quite skeptical. Tey might well finish it, but it doesnt fill with me confidence that it will be 1) good quality 2) succesful

Possibly.

If such an MMO can stand up on its own merits, why would it need to be done as a kickstarter in the first place?

Quote from: ggroy;613199Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

I'm an MMO player in addition to a tabletop player.  I play them at present for different reasons.

However (and my post is prompted mainly because you mention WoW, my game of choice), most MMO's are like WoW - 'themeparks' where there is developer-created content and very VERY little in the way of player-created content (the so-called sandbox).

PFO claims to be a full-featured sandbox.  Now, I don't know how true that actually is, but IF it were true, there is a not-miniscule but often under-represented playerbase looking for a fantasy sandbox other than the incredibly pvp-heavy Darkfall 2:Unholy Wars or Mortal Online, etc.  Whether Paizo could snag them up or not is an important question (especially considering that 3.x, 4E, and PF are more reminiscent of themepark MMO's while a sandbox is more reminiscent of 1st Edition AD&D).  In theory, it could provide some small trickle of new MMO players to become tabletop gamers...now whether or not that would be good since they'd be hopping into 'directed content'-style TT games is up for debate, but as a matter of principle, any new blood is better for the hobby than no new blood.  It provides fresh people to introduce to an authentic gaming experience imo.

Quote from: ggroy;613199Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

Well, that's the thing, apparently it's not really like Pathfinder at all, despite being set in the same world.

It's essentially trying to be a fantasy sandbox, which is the new in thing about MMORPGs now, after Star Wars The Old Republic, pretty much the ultimate theme park, wasn't that successful.

Of course, other than Eve, there really isn't any evidence that sandboxes are popular, and even in that case the number of players is inflated by people having multiple accounts.

Is this thing gonna be pay to play? If so, I wish them luck with that. It's kind of going against the tide with the way MMORPGs have been going in the last few years, with some high profile failures showing that regardless of license, getting money out of lots of paying subscribers is something only WOW has pulled off with long term success.

By the looks of it, it won't be funded anyway.

Quote from: Benoist;613094(1) this thread is about the PF MMO. It's not traditional tabletop RPGs, therefore, it should be in Other Games.

(2) my problem with the kickstarter is exactly that: it's an MMO, and I will not fund Ryan's idea that somehow tabletop RPGs can't survive without going MMOs, or that the two mediums are actually comparable to begin with. It's part of what's wrong with the current RPG design culture, to me, and I will not support that.

Benoist, many of the stretch goals for the project give you pen & paper benefits, so I think it's relevant.

My problem with the Kickstarter is the stupid demo they did earlier, using a ton of money to make, essentially, an early-2000s-level poor example of an MMO, and then asking for more money based on that craptacular demo.  I mean seriously, if that demo was representative of what they want to do with this game, they should have scrapped it.  I think Everyquest looked better.

That, and the fact that they soaked their customer base for money to make a demo, and then a second time to make the game, and then a third time to play the game.  That's just not a way to treat your fan base, particularly for a company that otherwise has a good reputation for treating their fans well.

That said, I still think this will get funded.  A lot of money comes in the final week.  Often two-thirds of the money comes in that time.

Quote from: JeremyR;613370Well, that's the thing, apparently it's not really like Pathfinder at all, despite being set in the same world.

It's essentially trying to be a fantasy sandbox, which is the new in thing about MMORPGs now, after Star Wars The Old Republic, pretty much the ultimate theme park, wasn't that successful.

Of course, other than Eve, there really isn't any evidence that sandboxes are popular, and even in that case the number of players is inflated by people having multiple accounts.

EVE very directly targets a few certain groups of players. It is what it is, and it is not interested in even pretending to be anything else. But it's a game from a different era, when a niche game could have the time to slowly find it's fanbase. And - the big one - it makes a very good return on CCP's investment.

But if you tried to launch a game like it today, you'd be in trouble. The fantasy sandboxes that do exist are even smaller, even more of a niche, and - most importantly - haven't blown up in the same way EVE did. Evidently they're profitable, but fantasy fans don't seem to want that type of play... and people that do, have EVE already.

I don't think Pathfinder will be a company-killer, it will just lurk in the underclass of MMO's that exist, but nobody really cares about.

For the record, I agree to keep this in the Main Forum, as long as the main topic of conversation is the effect of the MMO on the RPG hobby, and not specifically talking about the computer game itself.

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