So we had a new DM TPK the party whilst in the 1930's as Oklahoma Bootleggers.  

My GF showed up for dinner and then wasn't feeling well, so when we ate it I bid farewell and adieu.  The next week the DM called me up, thinking I was mad or something.  He announced his plans to resurrect the players by saying, basically, we had stuff we didn't know about and it could have saved us.

No one in the group thought this was a good idea.  Dead is dead.  This was a bad move for the DM, who felt as some do here:  that he somehow took our characters from us and, I dunno...felt bad or something.  In reality, we only took it bad when he announced our "miraculous survival".  

Everyone took it bad.  Changed games, changed GM's.  He'll be back, but this time he knows the score.

Point is, absolutely no one in my group would play if there wasn't both investiture and penalty.  

I think that goes for most groups, but you could probably slide it through with groups that cycle players a lot or have a lot of players new to the hobby.

Maybe it's the wargaming.  We move and "remove" a lot of pieces all day long.  People like their characters, but in the end...well, most characters have nothing to look forward to but a memorable death.

If there's no penalty, but lots of investiture (character background, fluff and such, including time making the character and learning the rules) then I think it's safe to call it "wank".  

Or is that what a "storygame" is?  I was never clear on that.

oh no.

Like I said, I'm a softy when it come to character death.

but dead is dead.

As a GM, you can't go back on a ruling, especially one as important as that. It makes you appear weak and shitty.

and if a GM does go back on something like that, they ARE weak and shitty.

Just move on.

Quote from: The Butcher;600412If there are D&D hirelings or henchmen, Vampire ghouls, Rogue Trader crewmen or similar disposable NPCs around, we let the player take over one of them. If not, well, tough luck. Go read a book or something, though sometimes I'll temporarily assign them some random unimportant NPC like a tavern-keeper to keep the occupied (also a sure-fire way to turn a forgettable interaction into a memorable exchange).

I try to minimize the "go read a book" piece, if possible because boring people who are there to game and socialize generally isn't ideal.  I'd much rather let them join in sooner rather than later.  But maybe it because we are all older and really time crunched so session time is really precious.

I deal with it in the same way I do when the NPCs die.  I make a ruling, or use an established policy, if I need to.  Then I move on.  In this case, the player takes over a henchman or rerolls; the game goes on either way, and if needed then I have the new man enter play when I deem it feasible.  Since I prefer to use a West Marches paradigm, that usually means "when the party returns to town" or "an unexpected bonus encounter".

Quote from: Blackhand;6003792.  Your name is entered into the Death Roll.

The Death Roll is a binder we keep with all the character sheets of the deceased within.  The first few pages is a register where the characters' name, the player and the cause of death and the date is written down.

That is a really good idea.

Quote from: poseidon-anubis;600478as the DM I encourage power gaming and creative stuff

What's creative stuff?

QuoteI do same with bad guy and try to kill off the players

if they die I laugh

You should follow this up by slapping their moms in the face.

When a character dies, my reaction depends a lot on the system and setting, what is emulatively-possible.

If, for example, character creation is a long drawn-out process, I will tell a guy who died he is out for the session, because it would take too long to pause everything to let him make a new guy.  Fortunately, most of my games don't run on systems like that.

If the system is faster for character creation, then we'll have the guy make a new character during a short pause as soon as possible, and the new character will get introduced at the next possible moment in the game (which sometimes can be very fast, and sometimes not).

RPGPundit

Faster character creation always is a plus in these situations. If making characters takes time, I usually ask folks to bring back-ups just in case.

Once a character does die, will try to get that player back into the game at the next convenient point. If that means a wait, i will often ask him to manage other aspects of the game in the meantime or play an NPC.

Quote from: Benoist;600364Death in the game is an opportunity for changes, events, drama. If the players fail to use the situation, if the DM doesn't allow for such developments to occur, then an opportunity is clearly missed. Fudging the dice, keeping the characters alive, this is bad DMing. This is setting foot into story-wanking, playing to the participants' entitlement, instead of encouraging them to be responsible of their characters' actions and consequences thereof.

Without meaningful choice, without consequences, there is no game. We might as well write a movie script together. That's not why I play role playing games.

This is what it's all about, and what drove me to make this post in the first place. I tend to troll around on reddit's rpg board and I've seen a number of posts in which some DMs openly boast about fudging dice rolls. I can't stand fudging. It completely undermines, cheapens and even renders the game meaningless as far as I'm concerned, but here in this community of role-players some people were standing up and saying they did it proudly.

My theory had been that this pride in dice fudging was mostly due to the difficult social situations it could cause at the table, but after reading all these posts, and reevaluating things again, it does seem that character creation system bloat may ultimately be the root of the problem.

If it takes Player A, 2 hours to create Gallahad McShitstorm, and then they engage in risky play behavior that should result in character death, the possibility of an awkward social encounter increases dramatically (due to the player's initial time investment) leading DMs with poor people management skills to be more likely to take the easy way out and lie about the dice rolls.

Most of these newer and more bloated systems also don't seem to place as much emphasis on henchmen and followers as the older systems as well which necessitates a break in the action to go back to town and pick up a new party member, or leads to the use of "poof here's a new character" type tropes.

Appreciate the conversation guys! Also, I really really like the Death Roll and Black File type ideas and need to implement something like that myself.

Well, anytime you're on some other RPG board and you find yourself thinking "Good god these guys are idiots!", just come here, you'll find out you were right.

Quote from: CRKrueger;600796Well, anytime you're on some other RPG board and you find yourself thinking "Good god these guys are idiots!", just come here, you'll find out you were right.

I may be missing your point, but there seem to be a ton of really smart people here.

Quote from: Bill;600917I may be missing your point, but there seem to be a ton of really smart people here.

He meant it RE: the remark about reddit's RPG board. If you find yourself on that board and think these guys are morons and then come here to talk it over, chances are, you'll find out that you were right: that they were morons on reddit's RPG board in the first place.

Quote from: Planet Algol;600494I love no players/empty table jabs.

"Female dwarves have beards in your game? ENJOY YOUR EMPTY TABLE WITH NO PLAYERS!"

EDIT: Whoops! Wrong of two somewhat similar threads...

Lol, Go home Planet Algol. You're drunk!

Quote from: The Traveller;600368Point and laugh, usually.

Yep.
Most deaths in our games are rare and due to player's taking a bad risk.
I rarely kill someone in combat if there's another option such as taking them prisoner for ransom, etc.

If you die you can either roll up a new PC and wait a while or take over an existing henchman or NPC (including animals) and keep on trucking.
Disappointment is usually the most common emotion, depending on the player.

Our current one shot game, which Heru plays in, is a 0-level funnel.
Each of the four players is in control of five peasants stuck in the dungeon.
They were made aware of how lethal it was going to be and and the fact we will never play these characters again.
 So far they've done a great job of setting off every trap in the place by accident and are actually trying their asses off to stay alive even though they have no 'emotional investment' in the future of these characters. They're doing it for fun and it's been great.

If they're aware that death is a real risk or that an amusing demise is the actual objective of the game, they roll with it.

Quote from: baran_i_kanu;601439Lol, Go home Planet Algol. You're drunk!

You know what they say: in vino veritas. Hehe.