Is there any point to having players make rolls for actions that aren't technically opposed?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;592770Is there any point to having players make rolls for actions that aren't technically opposed?

Can you elaborate a bit?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;592770Is there any point to having players make rolls for actions that aren't technically opposed?

By opposed, do you mean there is another person/thing/entity in the equation that is actively working against the player?  Or do you mean a simple environmental/situational check, such as roll for Constitution to determine if you can stay awake during the King's speech?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;592776Can you elaborate a bit?

Essentially why bother with rolls that aren't opposed, specifically by an npc? if the pc is trying to Spot Hidden, or Library Use, or Read Map, why bother with a roll at all?

The superhero rpg classic Golden Heroes has NO rules for anything other than combat: there are no skills that players roll under or stats other than their superpowers the rules for which are 99% how the stuff works in combat. There's no Spot Hidden or Library Use or even Haggle or Fast Talk, or whatever.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;592784Essentially why bother with rolls that aren't opposed, specifically by an npc? if the pc is trying to Spot Hidden, or Library Use, or Read Map, why bother with a roll at all?

The superhero rpg classic Golden Heroes has NO rules for anything other than combat: there are no skills that players roll under or stats other than their superpowers the rules for which are 99% how the stuff works in combat. There's no Spot Hidden or Library Use or even Haggle or Fast Talk, or whatever.

How important is the activity/skill in question to the play of the game? If success or failure at the activity has very little or no impact on gameplay then just make something up and don't roll.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;592784Essentially why bother with rolls that aren't opposed, specifically by an npc? if the pc is trying to Spot Hidden, or Library Use, or Read Map, why bother with a roll at all?

If it might be "interesting" if they failed. Failing Library Use or Read Map have obvious interesting consequences (Your analysis is wrong). And that's fun.

Spot Hidden (And other perception-like abilities) don't have interesting failures, though - "you failed. You see nothing". Outside of a few, rare, occurrences... that tends not to be fun.

Perception mechanics are my most hated thing about any RPG's rules.

Quote from: Ladybird;592790Perception mechanics are my most hated thing about any RPG's rules.

Those mechanics are for the GM. I never have the players roll, I just make the rolls, behind the GMs screen, to see if the players notice something in their environment that they can take advantage of.

"...and No, nobody noticed the Hobgoblin that snuck up behind the party with the oversized two-handed sword that wasted your mage with one stroke. Now what are you going to do?"

Not fair? Quite fair. Six players had an opportunity to spot the Hobgoblin. The roll was made against their Int or Spot skill (Whichever provided the best probability for the players, and they still failed, ergo the Hobgoblin snuck up on them and wasted the party Mage with a surprise attack.

1. They would get an opposed roll if they were actively searching.

2. If the Players can do it, why not the NPC's and Monsters?

Quote from: GameDaddy;592804Those mechanics are for the GM. I never have the players roll, I just make the rolls, behind the GMs screen, to see if the players notice something in their environment that they can take advantage of.

"...and No, nobody noticed the Hobgoblin that snuck up behind the party with the oversized two-handed sword that wasted your mage with one stroke. Now what are you going to do?"

Not fair? Quite fair. Six players had an opportunity to spot the Hobgoblin. The roll was made against their Int or Spot skill (Whichever provided the best probability for the players, and they still failed, ergo the Hobgoblin snuck up on them and wasted the party Mage with a surprise attack.

1. They would get an opposed roll if they were actively searching.

2. If the Players can do it, why not the NPC's and Monsters?

If i was a player in that game i'd take your copy of Dark Souls and burn it

I would have the players make the roll "roll your perception please" and then what happens. Doing it myself is busywork I don't like and hiding it behind a screen is uncool, especially if the next thing you say is "the mage is dead". It might well be technically fair, but I wouldn't feel comfortable. However this is more relevant to the dice fudging debate.

And, as I pointed out therein, one of the reasons i like the Doom Pool, in MHR, is that everything is simple, open and transparent. Even if you don't tell the player why he is rolling, it's still against the Doom Pool. ONe of the thigns I hate as a GM is having to adjudicate difficulties and modifiers; it's not realistic, it's dry and boring.

Quote from: Ladybird;592790If it might be "interesting" if they failed. Failing Library Use or Read Map have obvious interesting consequences (Your analysis is wrong). And that's fun.

Yeah, as I said in the other thread, I'll roll and use that as input towards the result.

Library Use scenario -

PC wants to try and find a fact in the library that I don't necessarily believe would be in there.  So I roll...

Result...

1) Not only did they not find what they were looking for, but they found a red herring.

2-15) Nope, didn't find anything, just like I thought.

16-19) Maybe they found something.  I'll gut check it.

20) Okay, yeah, I guess they could find something.  Let's see, how do I adapt to this...


Something like that.

Mythic is an entire RPG built on yes/no questions and probabilities.  The whole game can be ran 'GM-less' this way.  "Is there a door here?"  Not my style, but it can be made to work.

Oh, if only my language classes offered no opposition... I still love to hate you, kanji.

So the next obvious question is: how do you resolve circumstantial challenges to one's skill? The player just keeps trying until they succeed? Isn't time keeping a factor, which would negate this glossing over?

Quote from: Opaopajr;592841Oh, if only my language classes offered no opposition... I still love to hate you, kanji.

So the next obvious question is: how do you resolve circumstantial challenges to one's skill? The player just keeps trying until they succeed? Isn't time keeping a factor, which would negate this glossing over?

I would say that it depends on the skill. Some things you really can just keep at it until you succeed (example: trying to break a code) the only constraint is available time.

Other things cannot be retried so easily if you mess up (example: diffusing a bomb thats about to explode, or impressing the prince with your knowledge of etiquette upon meeting)

Some technical skills can also be deemed "best available effort" with a skill roll. An example of this would be a rule that prohibits retries until there is an improvement in skill.

=) I'll definitely put 'breaking a code' in a valid skill section, however. Cryptograms tend to be the most neglected puzzles in a newspaper -- I see almost no one even attempt them -- and that's with huge amounts of hints and a 1:1 substitution code. Also saying just time is all you need tends to gloss over what a large spectrum that can be.

So your three categories: reasonable time restraint, limited chances, valid skill level; are pertinent questions. How does a system gloss over these tasks but care about pc v. pc/npc and retain a task resolution flow? If you don't care about a task resolution flow, but a conflict resolution flow instead, well then your priorities are different and this arrangement might be sufficient.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;592784Essentially why bother with rolls that aren't opposed, specifically by an npc? if the pc is trying to Spot Hidden, or Library Use, or Read Map, why bother with a roll at all?

To know whether he can do it or not.  The fact that there's no one actively out to stop Cletus P. Yokel from knowing who won the Battle of Hastings doesn't mean that he automatically does know it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ladybird;592790If it might be "interesting" if they failed. Failing Library Use or Read Map have obvious interesting consequences (Your analysis is wrong). And that's fun.

Yup, failing at things is surprisingly fun sometimes. Like getting lost due to a failed roll and discovering a hidden temple with lots of goodies purely because you spent more time in the area than you had originally planned, that was an example from a previous thread. Or it might force the group into making a bargain they don't want to, like beating up a certain noble before the sage will translate the inscribed skull.

Quote from: The Traveller;593741Yup, failing at things is surprisingly fun sometimes.

Yes, this as well! Something certain Swine seem never to understand; or more specifically they don't understand that failing AGAINST YOUR WILL can be interesting and fun.

RPGPundit