Quote from: CRKrueger;590819Ok, can you give an example of a couple 5th level characters that are "basket-weavers"?  One caster and one non-caster, include feat and spell selection.  I'm asking because this is obviously not a CharOp board.

It's hard to discuss things when no one is clear exactly what we're talking about.

Here's some severe basket weavers:

Fighter 5, Longsword and shield, other choices don't actually matter as that's enough for them to qualify - or more to the point nothing would save such a character from failure.

Wizard 5, Evoker specialist, banned schools: Any non Enchantment but let's say Conjuration and Transmutation to really double down on the derp. Again, that's more than sufficient. Just the fact he spams Fireball and literally can't cast the good spells is enough.

Less extreme examples exist, such as a Fighter using a two hander like he's supposed to but not loading up on charge and/or trip stuff so he still can't do anything but since the core of the basket weaver mentality is that the character should suck and so should everyone else they typically don't do it only halfway.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590826Fighter 5, Longsword and shield, other choices don't actually matter as that's enough for them to qualify - or more to the point nothing would save such a character from failure.

Ok, so what are the key weapon and feat selections for a 5th level fighter?

Quote from: Mr. GC;590826Wizard 5, Evoker specialist, banned schools: Any non Enchantment but let's say Conjuration and Transmutation to really double down on the derp. Again, that's more than sufficient. Just the fact he spams Fireball and literally can't cast the good spells is enough.

Ok, so what are the absolute must-have spells for a 5th level wizard?

Quote from: CRKrueger;590830Ok, so what are the key weapon and feat selections for a 5th level fighter?

First of all, you don't be a 5th level Fighter. That's 75% of a basket weaver on the spot.

Second you get yourself a two handed reach weapon (ideally a spiked chain, polearms are passable), pick charge or trip, and take a bunch of stuff for them. I don't think you can actually have the charge stuff at this level, but the trip stuff is generally obvious (Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip... it ends up costing a lot of feats).

QuoteOk, so what are the absolute must-have spells for a 5th level wizard?

In core only your main offensive spells are going to be Glitterdust, Web, Slow, and perhaps Stinking Cloud at that level with stuff like Fly used for support. Non core, offense doesn't really change but a few more utility effects become available like Nerveskitter. Regardless, if you're doing it right your total damage output is at or very near 0.

The main difference is that a Fighter, or any non caster is entirely unplayable in core. A Wizard, or the main full casters get most of their power from core.

Skills though aren't a factor at all. I let skills do more than a basket weaver DM would* and they're still not that great.

* - Examples include raising Craft (armor) up to +8 at character creation so as to allow for saving 7k on a mithril full plate at character creation for a mid level character, and Handle Animal around +7 or +8 so you can no fail all the relevant checks to train and command a Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker, which is like a Fighter but actually competent and cheap and available at every level in which attack for HP damage matters. A basket weaver DM would get offended if you used Craft (armor) to save money and the skill is useless unless you can abuse it at character creation like this, and a basket weaver DM would get really offended if you correctly illustrated that for a sub 1k fee you can get a better party member than that gimp over there. Even with a non basket weaver DM, that's the ceiling on those skill's usefulness - there's nothing to gain from further investment.

Ok, so let's open up to non-core, and give unrestricted access to all WotC products for 3.5 - what's one exact build for "GC's perfect non-Basketweaving Fighter-type character." at level 5? or a higher level if you want.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590826Here's some severe basket weavers:

Fighter 5, Longsword and shield, other choices don't actually matter as that's enough for them to qualify - or more to the point nothing would save such a character from failure..

Yeah, you're not saying 3.x is a shit system at all... :rolleyes:

If a core class is gimped by default, then it's a shit system.  Congratulations, you've managed to make a strong argument that your favorite system is objectively the worst version of D&D out there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;590835Ok, so let's open up to non-core, and give unrestricted access to all WotC products for 3.5 - what's one exact build for "GC's perfect non-Basketweaving Fighter-type character." at level 5? or a higher level if you want.

Let's see... level 5 means attack for HP damage is still relevant. I'll skip the obvious answer of that dinosaur I just mentioned.

So you go Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2 (optionally with Dungeoncrasher)/Filler 2 (could be one of the Monk variants, could be feat Rogue... probably not that one though).

Lion Totem gets Pounce. You cannot be a relevant melee without this. It is not possible. That's the easiest way by far of getting it. Whirling Frenzy is essentially a better Rage (there are some that will tell you it isn't, they are morons). The hit and run Fighter variant loses nothing important and gains +2 Init. For the filler, it largely depends on what feats you need.

Race you go Water Orc, gold standard for melee, and throw on Dragonborn while you're at it. Yes, this requires some odd alignment explaining, possibly more than once. You're a non caster, get used to having to justify your existence at every turn.

So at level 5 you have a Str of 26, and two attacks which you can both use consistently. This means you might actually be a threat. You also have something like 52 HP so you might survive one round of combat (probably not two though).

Str also influences both Dungeoncrashing and tripping, so that's nice. Dungeoncrashing is kind of pointless unless you're going Goliath, as otherwise you can't take Knockback. Goliath eats 1 level and otherwise isn't really better than the Dragonborn Water Orc.

Note that even with this, you still only have a remaining shelf life of 2-4 levels at best.

Quote from: StormBringer;590611I wouldn't hold my breath; he essentially copy and pastes whatever Frank Trollman says.  Recent complaints about Fighters causing Clerics to see the future less or summon fewer angels was just about word for word from the Trollman quote he has in his sig over at TGD.  Frank channels Edwards' 'brain damage' line, Mr GC faithfully parrots Frank, and we have to listen to nonsense about optimizers are more organized in real life, hence, better people.

Mr GC fails to realize that Frank is merely presenting his obsession with neatness and organization as a virtue rather than a complete pain in the ass like it actually is.

Nah according to Frank, Mr. GC = Mr. BPD, also known as...Roy! dumdumdummmmm!

 http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53689&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=425

See? He's just a trolley troll mctrollenstein with severe mental issues.

Quote from: EddieValentine;590841Nah according to Frank, Mr. GC = Mr. BPD, also known as...Roy! dumdumdummmmm!

 http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53689&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=425

See? He's just a trolley troll mctrollenstein with severe mental issues.

Awesome.  I was pretty sure that level of disturbance doesn't occur with the frequency necessary for there to be more than one of them in a population sample as small as theRPGsite and TGD combined.

Although, I have no idea who this Roy is, although the name rings a bell.  Too much pent up rage for it to be a complete stranger though.

I love how Mr. One Post guy is instantly taken as legit, just because he's bitching about me.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590775Still less shit than the alternatives.

You have not exhibited any knowledge whatsoever of the alternatives.

even if you had, I would very much doubt you were familiar with 99% of the RPg systems released ocommercially or online over the last 30 years.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590784Getting a quality gaming experience takes several times longer in setup than playing a non tabletop game.

Nah, some of my best games have been spur of the moment freestyle play.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590853I love how Mr. One Post guy is instantly taken as legit, just because he's bitching about me.

What about all those other people he linked to?  Are they not legit either?  Who cares what this one guy here said.  We're all reading that thread, and what everyone else has to say.

Can't say I'm shocked.  Although maybe this finally means you'll get banned for site disruption, since you're obviously only here to troll.

Quote from: TristramEvans;590858You have not exhibited any knowledge whatsoever of the alternatives.

even if you had, I would very much doubt you were familiar with 99% of the RPg systems released ocommercially or online over the last 30 years.

The funny thing is none of that matters. People here are seriously claiming D&D, and a specific edition of D&D at that is the only tabletop game with trap options. That's a laughable claim.

Every game of every type has trap options. Tabletop games just have a lot more of them in general because the field doesn't attract talent.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590862The funny thing is none of that matters. People here are seriously claiming D&D, and a specific edition of D&D at that is the only tabletop game with trap options. That's a laughable claim.

Every game of every type has trap options. Tabletop games just have a lot more of them in general because the field doesn't attract talent.

What's a "trap option"?

Quote from: TristramEvans;590868What's a "trap option"?

Really? You don't even know what that term means after all this time?

A trap option is something that seems good but is actually a trap. All this stuff about bad classes, bad feats, bad weapons... trap options.