Quote from: BedrockBrendan;590606On what planet is Optimization or "basket weaving" a lifestyle?

I imagine on a planet where someone spends the vast majority of their time, every day, doing nothing but optimizing.  No going out to places.  No other hobbies.  Just sitting at a desk going over books.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;590606On what planet is Optimization or "basket weaving" a lifestyle?

I wouldn't hold my breath; he essentially copy and pastes whatever Frank Trollman says.  Recent complaints about Fighters causing Clerics to see the future less or summon fewer angels was just about word for word from the Trollman quote he has in his sig over at TGD.  Frank channels Edwards' 'brain damage' line, Mr GC faithfully parrots Frank, and we have to listen to nonsense about optimizers are more organized in real life, hence, better people.

Mr GC fails to realize that Frank is merely presenting his obsession with neatness and organization as a virtue rather than a complete pain in the ass like it actually is.

Quote from: jibbajibba;590523Agree with this totally but its not limited to 3e or 4 e its common in OSR as well.

Even on this site when I have pointed out issues I encountered playing 1e/2e with all thief or all fighter parties, which itself led to me houseruling the game to compensate for reliance on magical healing etc, I have been met with arguments that a party in D&D needs to be balanced and represent each of the major classes because that is how the game runs....

Likewise when I have pointed out that the sports or 10 foot pole approach to D&D is very common in the OSR where all charcters use the same professional adventuring techniques and rarely make sub-optimal ingame desicions for role play reasons I have been shouted down for being a wanky role-player.

just sayin....

Bleah.  You keep singing this tune in your anti-OSR songbook, but you're blowing it out of proportion.  You do have a point though...

1. The archetypes being "metagame".  I never treated them as such, it was simple - if you didn't expect to need healing, then you didn't have to bring someone who needed healing.  Special Ops teams have medics.  Why?  They get shot at.  You want to make a group where everyone is a Rogue or Fighter?  Sure, but this a world where magic exists and the opposition may very well have Mages and Healers.  Does that mean you can't defeat them? No, but it means you should be aware of the consequences.

I altered the HP regain rules because RAW, HPs make no sense whatsoever.  They are Schrodinger's Mechanics.  Sometimes they mean physical damage, sometimes they do not.  I also allowed MU necromantic spells to do some limited healing based on articles out of Dragon (and provided your character got ahold of those spells.)

2. I never liked the Indiana Jones "Bag of Flour and a 10' Pole" trope, especially from 1st level fighters that just got released from basic militia training.  No one I played with played that way except the Rogues (from whom that kind of stuff was expected).  Now experienced adventurers who have a few levels and have learned, sure.  But then again I roleplayed a lot more then Old Geezer.

Yeah the OSR Taliban is gonna try and skewer you on these two points Jibba, but that's like 20 people.  There's more then 1000 times that number on the Giant In the Playground 3.5 forums alone.

In other words -
"Common" for 3.5? Yeah, to the point of being cliche.
"Common" for earlier editions, not even close.

Quote from: CRKrueger;590598The problem with this line of thinking is, it's 100% metagame in what should be a roleplaying game.  I have nothing wrong with ganking a gimp, however, it should be my character ganking a gimp character after my character finds out in game, that the gimp is a gimp.

First of all that was a facetious statement, in case the language didn't give it away. The weak characters should die of course, and they will, but it's hardly "ganking" as it's rare actual PKing is required.

That said it's hardly metagaming for a group that's forming to ask each other "What can you do?"

Even aside from abilities and their power, you want to know what your team's strengths and weaknesses are going to be so you can devise plans together.

And if some guy doesn't have an answer, or doesn't have a convincing answer you're within your rights to ask why he's here then.

QuoteAs a player I have no interest in looking over someone's character sheet to see how he's optimized.  His character tells my character what he can do and how qualified he is.  If he's lying and is a threat to my team, I'll bury him, or cut him loose, or part ways after we get back to safety, depending on the game we're playing and the character I'm roleplaying.  You know, exactly how your character would actually handle it.

The only problem with this method is that if he is lying (and basket weavers do lie about their abilities, they don't even have to intend to be lying, they just think they're actually capable when they aren't) you don't find out until after the fact meaning that there's a good chance you don't get to kill or kick him, you just die.

Quote from: CRKrueger;590604GC's talking about people who will consistently create interesting (to them) characters that are suboptimal and end up being a chain around the party's neck.  How often does this really happen?  I don't know, I've run into one person who wasn't invited back after three characters that came with 25-page backstories, special problems, etc...  Over the years I've run into a handful mainly at cons and pickup groups.

This board is full of them. The general tabletop community is full of them. How the fuck did you only encounter one? Are you sure you just didn't notice them? They are somewhat hard to notice provided that the DM is a basket weaver, at which point you're playing pretend instead of D&D, their characters won't die, and you won't hear their constant bitching.

QuoteAnyone else, all it takes is "Dude, you're not the only one at the table." and they reign it in.  You talk to people like they are adults and they act like adults, or you don't invite them back, zero problem, zero issue.

All the rest is typical Internet bullshit.

Where GC goes Full Retard (and fake internet personamode) is assuming that it's something other then a voluntary, and thus correctable behavior.

Oh, it is a correctable behavior. Just it's so often enabled that large numbers of players are adverse to even the concept of good play, much less good players and good play being expected of them.

Voluntary? Not as sure about that. I don't think someone like Sacro could ever make a character worth anything. If I held someone he cared about hostage and said make me a non gimp or this guy/girl gets it... he couldn't do it. Now obviously I wouldn't do that, as I'm content with blithely mocking gimpy players, but I really do believe he couldn't make a character worth anything if someone's life depended on it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;590606On what planet is Optimization or "basket weaving" a lifestyle?

The planet that contains both Occupy Wall Street protesters and successful businessmen.

Also, lol at the moron that thinks I'm just copying Frank. Or that I even get along with Frank. Perhaps you should go troll the Den a bit better.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626Voluntary? Not as sure about that. I don't think someone like Sacro could ever make a character worth anything. If I held someone he cared about hostage and said make me a non gimp or this guy/girl gets it... he couldn't do it. Now obviously I wouldn't do that, as I'm content with blithely mocking gimpy players, but I really do believe he couldn't make a character worth anything if someone's life depended on it..

Hopefully one day you'll grow out this kind of behavior.

Hopefully.  Dealing with real life must be a real downer for you, huh?  Chin up dude.  One day you'll find that real life social interaction is a million times more fulfilling than make-pretend min-maxing about a game.  Thing is, you gotta suck it up and actually go out there and meet with people face to face.  I know this is probably terrifying, and that's OK.  It's not that unusual for a socially awkward teen to encounter those feelings.  But you can't go through your whole life placing your value on min/maxing an rpg character.  Real relationship, real love, real social interaction--that's what value is.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626The only problem with this method is that if he is lying (and basket weavers do lie about their abilities, they don't even have to intend to be lying, they just think they're actually capable when they aren't) you don't find out until after the fact meaning that there's a good chance you don't get to kill or kick him, you just die.

If I die, then I die.  It sucks, but I'd rather die in game, then get saved through metagaming.  

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626Are you sure you just didn't notice them? They are somewhat hard to notice provided that the DM is a basket weaver, at which point you're playing pretend instead of D&D, their characters won't die, and you won't hear their constant bitching.

I've only met one who wouldn't adjust to the table.  Everyone else just learned.

Once, when our old group was disintegrating due to time and life, we brought in a lot of new blood. In one stretch of time I went through several very cool characters due to TPKs.  Why?  Not because characters weren't CharOp'd (this was AD&D, where you can't gimp yourself) but because the GM was playing low level humanoids realistically, and lack of tactics meant people were dropping like flies.  Splitting the party, moving into danger because "me too", all the stupid shit that gets everyone killed.  After lots of after-session debriefs that pointed out exactly how we got wiped and why, they started learning, and characters stopped dying.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626Oh, it is a correctable behavior. Just it's so often enabled that large numbers of players are adverse to even the concept of good play, much less good players and good play being expected of them.

I've definitely run into players that do crazy shit and don't expect the GM to kill them for it.  In our groups, the GM kills them for it, and they stop doing the crazy shit.  I've had two players go apeshit to the point of almost throwing down over their characters getting killed.  Both of them came back within 6 months, because the games they were in just weren't as fun.  They thought being able to run the show was what they wanted.  They were wrong.

Quote from: CRKrueger;590638If I die, then I die.  It sucks, but I'd rather die in game, then get saved through metagaming.  

That's fine, but I still don't think it's metagaming to be aware a gimp is a gimp. That, by definition is something that is obvious in character.

QuoteOnce, when our old group was disintegrating due to time and life, we brought in a lot of new blood. In one stretch of time I went through several very cool characters due to TPKs.  Why?  Not because characters weren't CharOp'd (this was AD&D, where you can't gimp yourself) but because the GM was playing low level humanoids realistically, and lack of tactics meant people were dropping like flies.  Splitting the party, moving into danger because "me too", all the stupid shit that gets everyone killed.  After lots of after-session debriefs that pointed out exactly how we got wiped and why, they started learning, and characters stopped dying.

Lol at this, but I'm not interested in discussing older editions right now so I'll let it pass.

And what you just said was people stopped playing dumb and stopped dying.

QuoteI've definitely run into players that do crazy shit and don't expect the GM to kill them for it.  In our groups, the GM kills them for it, and they stop doing the crazy shit.  I've had two players go apeshit to the point of almost throwing down over their characters getting killed.  Both of them came back within 6 months, because the games they were in just weren't as fun.  They thought being able to run the show was what they wanted.  They were wrong.

Now here's my question. Why are you here, on this board? This isn't exactly the place to get a lot of non basket weaver support, and yet you seem to identify with those here.

Quote from: MGuy;590327Now the only way your analogy can hold at all is if we're talking about backyard football and we're being incredibly meta about our view on people that shouldn't be adventuring. In backyard football there are no real stakes and most of the time you accept shitty people on your team just to fill the roster. If you have a choice/more people than you need, you would not be surprised that the shittiest and/or most unliked people don't get on anyone's team. In RPGs usually your characters are trying to do something of importance so they are going to want and seek out capable people if they can. It is incredibly meta to have the team ok a random mothafucka with no applicable skills.

Even in a backyard game, most people will draw a line about who can and cannot play.  If you're a teenager playing with teenage friends, you probably won't let your five-year-old sister play.  Anyone who has ever said 'you're too young to play' knows what we're talking about.  It's not that you don't want them to have fun - it's that they will probably get hurt.  

Taking a sous chef to take out Bin Laden in a Seal Team Six game is a bad idea

- not only does he take up room on the team that could be used for someone with relevant skills

- not only is he likely to get himself hurt or killed

- he is unlikely to contribute in any meaningful way

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626That said it's hardly metagaming for a group that's forming to ask each other "What can you do?"

This is definitely true.  Sure, someone could lie, but the true capabilities should become obvious.

I'm reminded of a scene in Mystery Men (one of the most underrated comedies ever).  The established team is recruiting additional 'super' heroes by having 'try-outs' in one of the character's back yard.  They screen candidates by asking about what they can do and/or asking them to demonstrate.  While the team itself is hardly 'optimized', even they had standards.  Not everyone could 'make the cut'.  

Now, taking Waffle-Iron Man would have been just as much of a problem as if Superman showed up - with him on the team, everyone else would have been superfluous.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590626Also, lol at the moron that thinks I'm just copying Frank. Or that I even get along with Frank. Perhaps you should go troll the Den a bit better.

Then perhaps you should stop parroting Frank.  This whole basket-weaver nonsense is his baby, just like pretending that using numbers means you are playing hardcore and not MTP.  Also that optimizers are better people in real life and 'basket-weavers' are disorganized, sloppy thinkers.

You can protesteth too much all day long if you like, but it would have a bit more weight if you at least use your own words when re-transmitting your received wisdom.

Quote from: StormBringer;590647Then perhaps you should stop parroting Frank.  This whole basket-weaver nonsense is his baby, just like pretending that using numbers means you are playing hardcore and not MTP.  Also that optimizers are better people in real life and 'basket-weavers' are disorganized, sloppy thinkers.

You can protesteth too much all day long if you like, but it would have a bit more weight if you at least use your own words when re-transmitting your received wisdom.

Then perhaps you should stop being a fucking moron. Basket weaver is hardly Frank's term, and he wasn't the first to come up with it. Likewise, playing D&D by playing D&D is neither his idea nor an especially original idea as it is indeed painfully obvious. The last thing is something I've never seen Frank say at all so I'm going to assume that's Storm Smokes Crack (which is actual Den speak).

If you actually knew what the fuck you were talking about you'd know that Frank actually isn't that much better at optimizing than you. Seriously, he's scared of shit like Lightning Bolt. No self respecting player does that. He also seems to think straight lines go down curved stairs, despite Lightning Bolt no longer refracting when striking a solid object.

Quote from: Mr. GC;590650If you actually knew what the fuck you were talking about...

Speaking of:

Quote...you'd know that Frank actually isn't that much better at optimizing than you.

Because Frank and K's Tomes are all about writing up a lengthy, detailed background and not about optimizing at all.

And thankfully, I am not particularly good at optimizing.  It's because I have social skills and get along with people instead of always trying to beat them in imaginary contests like 'who can make the better D&D character?'

Quote from: CRKrueger;590612Bleah.  You keep singing this tune in your anti-OSR songbook, but you're blowing it out of proportion.  You do have a point though...

1. The archetypes being "metagame".  I never treated them as such, it was simple - if you didn't expect to need healing, then you didn't have to bring someone who needed healing.  Special Ops teams have medics.  Why?  They get shot at.  You want to make a group where everyone is a Rogue or Fighter?  Sure, but this a world where magic exists and the opposition may very well have Mages and Healers.  Does that mean you can't defeat them? No, but it means you should be aware of the consequences.

Like Mother Nature, I let the world cull out the weak, the stupid and the unprepared. It's not a sure thing that a party with no spellcasters will get a TPK, but that where I'd place my bet.

Quote2. I never liked the Indiana Jones "Bag of Flour and a 10' Pole" trope, especially from 1st level fighters that just got released from basic militia training.  No one I played with played that way except the Rogues (from whom that kind of stuff was expected).  Now experienced adventurers who have a few levels and have learned, sure.  But then again I roleplayed a lot more then Old Geezer.

First-level fighters are called veterans in (A)D&D, so it's quite reasonable that the ones who go adventuring will have picked up tricks of the trade.

Interesting debate. I do have to pity Mr CG a fair bit because of the blinding arrogance enough to make even Pundit banche.

I agree with a lot of CRKrueger's points I too woudl prefer to die in character that gimp for meta game reasons now to me that also includes making the new guy play the healer because you need a healer then all the PCs meet randomly in a tavern or find themselves serving as galley slaves at the start of the campaign.
Everyone plays what they play and that is what you have now if you were playing in a game where the PCs were all agents of the king or a Delta force team then I woudl expect a degree of 'team rolls' need to be filled. It does indeed stand to reason that a special ops team, either for Uncle Sam or King Celeborn is going to cover the necessary skills but how many games actually run that way from first level?
Now I work in a big corporation, the idea that clueless people get found out and cream rises is bollocks the truth is political people rise and their rivals get dumped on. That will be no different in a D&D party. there is an excellent bit in The Heroes

Spoiler

where the weakest most cowardly warrior ends up king of the North because he gets political support from the hardest bastard in the North.

and I have seen that work in play all the time. In a party of five the leader may well end up being a crappy basket weaving fighter who's player has the political control of the group not the most powerful or charismatic PC in the group.

I can give you a specific play example. Lord Fantasitc. Lord Fantastic is a PC belonging to a mate of mine. He put his 18 into Comliness and his 16 into Charisma. He has a lot of ettiquette and heraldry and I think he may be specialised with a sword but its really not very important. The player is a charismatic guy when he wants to be so he turns it on with Lord Fantastic and that PC will boss a group of PCs 3 levels higher than he is. The PC was made a Lord, albeit of a shit hole in the middle of no where when he was 2nd level and he was last seen floating up a river on a magical barge with half a dozen concubines.
Now in case you think the DM 'let him get a way with it' I DM'd that last game and to give you an understanding of how that plays the PCs had broken into a house to steal an object on the way out the party were escaping from a window and one of them, Josadec Horseslayer,  had an option to flee or to check what was following them. He chose to check and the player told me afterwards that he knew as soon as he did that he was dead. The extra round was all it took for the guards to mass enough force. . And he was right no rescue no ressurectection he got to start a 1st level thief instead. Now the point is that Lord Fantasic was playing a real game with genuine risks. The evil bastard NPCs didn;t care how pretty he was they would have gutted him in a second but he manged to pursuade the other PCs and NPCs to help him and the player was able to pursuade the players.

In D&D at low to mid levels tactics can make a huge difference true at high level as well but at high levels Magic and equipment triumph. At low levels your build or the build of the entire party isn;t as important as the tactics you deploy. Its like the Expendables (all power PCs with good builds) versus the penguins from Madagascar (fantastic tactics) the penguins will win. So a Player with good tactics is a massive boon to the team, and tactics are a player skill and whilst a good tactician can rolelay a tactically weak PC a tactically weak player can not roleplay a brilliant tactician. So you play a basket weaver who on paper is crap but in play is Caesar and Napolenon rolled into one.....

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;590606On what planet is Optimization or "basket weaving" a lifestyle?

The planet of buttfuck crazy people, or alternately, people who've lived into a real-life dungeon for far too long and should get out some time to get a bit of fresh air and you know... live.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;590646Taking a sous chef to take out Bin Laden in a Seal Team Six game is a bad idea

...and that's not what we're remotely talking about.  What we're talking about is building a party (thus weeding out "basketweaver characters") through roleplaying or metagame.  If you're actually playing a SpecOps game, then you have requirements you have to meet, both physically and skillwise in order to qualify for your MOS, and the team slots will be allocated to certain MOS's.  You can't have a Cook be on a Seal Team, what you can have is a Seal "Who also cooks."

Obviously, in a game setting where the character concepts have to meet certain requirements, then characters who don't meet those requirements will be cut in-game, even if it's off-stage.

Quote from: Conversation happening daily at gaming tables in the Real WorldGM - "Sorry Jim, the requirements for Seal Team Six are {whatever}, you're going to drop some skill ranks in {whatever} and add them to Demolitions or else this character would have been cut during selection."

Jim - "Ok, no problem."