Quote from: Mr. GC;586441At no point in time did I move the goalposts. My stance always has and always will be that killing your own allies, including something that merely has a chance of killing them because you are trying to help them is pants on head retarded. The exact odds that you will kill your own allies is irrelevant beyond being a number greater than 0.

LOL right! That's not like you were just talking about 9% chance of dying or something just a moment ago. Wait... wut? AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

As for your "point" here, that just told me you've probably never actually played AD&D. Anybody who's played the game can tell you casting spells with various side-effects, negative or positive, as well as using them outside the box, and/or casting negative spells for beneficial effects and vice versa, is part and parcel of the game. Having potentially disastrous consequences to the use of a spell that is, in fact, pretty powerful, and thereby having to know the risks and make actual choices as to when to use this or that spell in which particular circumstance, is common place in AD&D.

But of course...



Now go ahead. Take away these negative effects and tell me how much you think the MU is overpowered again. :rolleyes:

Quote from: StormBringer;586450Yes, three decades of playing a game that was unplayable for a lot of groups.

Haven't you been paying attention.  All those gamers suffer from Stockholm syndrome.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586410That link is just an archive, a compendium. They're just stating the facts, not making judgment calls.

Wait, so that link isn't RAW?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;586452Haven't you been paying attention.  All those gamers suffer from Stockholm syndrome.

Yeah, it's like they have...  brain damage?  

Quote from: mcbobbo;586446Obviously a tower would be build to 'tower' over the surrounding landscape.  A tower that doesn't tower is just a building.  So it doesn't really say anything except that people in the tower have a site line over the treetops.

A tower would be tall, but how tall varies. Given that this is a sunken city, and very few things extend above the surface of the water it's safe to conclude this does not extend very far... Regardless, the main tell was a 500 foot detection range since even if there were trees about, if people were hiding behind them you still could not see so well. In fact towering over the treetops would be a liability when it comes to seeing below the treetops. If this was a forest, which it is not.

QuoteAlso it bears noting that D&D worlds are almost always Earth-analogue.  So unless it has been explicitly stated elsewhere, what holds true on Earth holds true in, e.g., Mystara.  That being said, very, very few places on Earth have zero trees.

But you're just moving the goalposts again, aren't you?

The goalposts have not been moved by my side. There aren't trees in the lake because it's a fucking lake. There are trees around the lake, but that doesn't matter because the guys in the bell tower watching the lake get a clear view of everything around for a very large distance and according to several here just derping it on over and getting spotted at 500 feet sounds like a great way to play.

Of course the actual solution is to not march across a killing zone and make the entire party invisible, or breathe water and then walk along the lakebed, or something other than "Please see and shoot me now!" The bad party, in that example obviously had no ability to be invisible or breathe water even if they thought of it.

QuoteWhich edition?  E.g. in 3rd, almost every party does, even on a double-move option:


Likewise, that same site says, "It costs 2 squares of movement to move into a square with a shallow bog", so you're well under 40/round if it were a swamp at all, by your own example.

And at this point the party has left you behind because you're moving at 40 and the rest of the party is going 100-200... Shall I find the mount rules, and explain why those are relevant to a slow PC or can you handle that?

As is, the 40 foot speed here is because that's as fast as the boat goes.

QuoteI might have been willing to concede that I missed it before, but I've looked at the 20 or so posts prior to the one I linked you, and I find nothing to substantiate your position.

Also, again going back to the SRD, rowboats move at 1.5 miles an hour, or 13.2 feet per round.  Nowhere close to 40.

Was it a speedboat?

For the hell of it, we will blindly assume you're right, even though you're not. Well, what does this change?

Now, the party has to weather near 40 rounds of ranged attack spam just to close in instead of 12-13.

Now, the party needs around 50 rounds to disengage instead of about 15.

In what way does this help them not die horribly before accomplishing anything?

Sure, it only changes the scenario from "Party is violently murdered before they can even attempt the adventure" to "Party is violently murdered before they can even attempt the adventure" which is not a change at all. But weren't you trying to I dunno, prove me wrong or something?

It gets worse when you consider even if they somehow make it to just outside the bell tower's engagement range without dying horribly to a withering 50 rounds of combat... The bell has rung. It takes about 5 minutes for every single enemy in and around that lake area to get to wherever it is the problem is occurring. I realize math is hard, so I will spell it out for you. A round is 6 seconds. 1 minute is 10 rounds. After 50 rounds have past it has been 5 minutes.

Which means you are now faced with the following scenario:

Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Blackscale Lizardfolk - 6, Shadow Demon - 1, Archer Mook - 4, Melee Mook - 4, Melee Machine - 2, Commander - 1, Melee Leader - 1, Druid - 1, Psychic - 1, Charmed [strike]Frost Giant[/strike] Psychic Pet - 1, Very Angry Dragon - 1 appear! Command?

And even retards such as yourselves who have never played D&D in any edition and therefore would not know even in general terms what these enemies can do even with labels befitting of your intellects attached to them and who want to both die constantly and never die at the same time and who want REAL ROLEPLAYING yet want suicide shuffling at the same time and so on down the stupid line can work out if there's that many mother fuckers trying to kill you you might as well just save them the trouble and do it yourself.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586441Any time a PC has to add "their allies" to the long list of things trying to kill them there's going to be some proactive ganking.

Not "trying to kill", but "may accidentally kill under stressful circumstances"... because you're not going cast that spell unless the rewards outweigh the risks.

If the risk of system shock is lower than the risk of dying at the hands of your enemy if you're not hasted, it makes a lot of sense.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;586374I think this is a lot of his point.  The game as written tends to be unplayable for a lot of groups.  

The most popular and successful game system of all time is unplayable? Funny.

Quote from: Ladybird;586458Not "trying to kill", but "may accidentally kill under stressful circumstances"... because you're not going cast that spell unless the rewards outweigh the risks.

If the risk of system shock is lower than the risk of dying at the hands of your enemy if you're not hasted, it makes a lot of sense.

Uh huh. And that brings us back to:

Any enemy with a significant chance of killing you will just go ahead and do that before you're aware it can.
Incoherent dichotomous rants about how characters should both always and never die as if in some quantum state of uncertainty.
Incoherent dichotomous rants about how dirty rotten powergamers ignore rules that don't suit them and play the rules, not the game then do the same goddamn thing themselves in a much more blatant fashion than even their worst caricatures of others.

In case you missed it

Quote from: Sacrosanct;586448Mr. GC,

When driving with passengers, do you by chance always maintain the exact speed limit.  At all times?

Please answer with a yes or no, and feel free to give a reason why not if that's the case, thank you.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586465Uh huh. And that brings us back to:

Any enemy with a significant chance of killing you will just go ahead and do that before you're aware it can.
Incoherent dichotomous rants about how characters should both always and never die as if in some quantum state of uncertainty.
Incoherent dichotomous rants about how dirty rotten powergamers ignore rules that don't suit them and play the rules, not the game then do the same goddamn thing themselves in a much more blatant fashion than even their worst caricatures of others.

LOL Right.

Quote from: Benoist;586451As for your "point" here, that just told me you've probably never actually played AD&D. Anybody who's played the game can tell you casting spells with various side-effects, negative or positive, as well as using them outside the box, and/or casting negative spells for beneficial effects and vice versa, is part and parcel of the game. Having potentially disastrous consequences to the use of a spell that is, in fact, pretty powerful, and thereby having to know the risks and make actual choices as to when to use this or that spell in which particular circumstance, is common place in AD&D.

But of course...



Now go ahead. Take away these negative effects and tell me how much you think the MU is overpowered again. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455Regardless, the main tell was a 500 foot detection range since even if there were trees about, if people were hiding behind them you still could not see so well.

/yawn

Nobody said it was a forest, skillet.  Just that there could be 'a tree'.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455The goalposts have not been moved by my side.

Oh no?

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455There aren't trees in the lake because it's a fucking lake.

Swamp?  Or lake?  An hour ago it was a swamp.  You used that word.  You didn't bring 'lake' into it until quite recently.

Really if you're right it would be trivial to save yourself.  Show me where you described this lake earlier.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455There are trees around the lake, but that doesn't matter because the guys in the bell tower watching the lake get a clear view of everything around for a very large distance and according to several here just derping it on over and getting spotted at 500 feet sounds like a great way to play.

So now there are trees nearby?  Because an hour ago you said zero trees.

Because I wasn't talking about sitelines at all.  I was talking about treants and dryads.

Am I supposed to be confused by your topic change?  I could play along, I guess, if it benefits the conversation.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455Of course the actual solution is to not march across a killing zone and make the entire party invisible, or breathe water and then walk along the lakebed, or something other than "Please see and shoot me now!" The bad party, in that example obviously had no ability to be invisible or breathe water even if they thought of it.

So it'll be the Chewbacca Defense, then.  You change the topic to visibility and movement, when the topic was, originally, swamps have zero trees.  If the glove does not fit you must make me a sandwich. No, no, I get it.  I'm actually enjoying it.

See, fellas, you actually can win an argument with this guy.  Just keep him talking long enough...

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455And at this point the party has left you behind because you're moving at 40 and the rest of the party is going 100-200... Shall I find the mount rules, and explain why those are relevant to a slow PC or can you handle that?

Skillz, how well do mounts fare in a lake, exactly?  Are they giant fish?  If they are, yeah, I'd be a bit curious to see the stats you used.  Did you require custom skills to ride them?

It is a lake, now, right?  Er, um, wasn't it always?  Maybe it was a keyboard error making you type 'swamp' all along, rather than 'lake' and you simply didn't notice that

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455As is, the 40 foot speed here is because that's as fast as the boat goes.

Was. It. A. Speedboat?

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455For the hell of it, we will blindly assume you're right, even though you're not. Well, what does this change?

Another topic shift?  Did you previously describe this swamp-lake from the beginning, as a situation that existed in actual reality, or not?  You impugned my reading comprehension, did you not?

Prove it.

Is this the third or fourth time I've asked you?  I forget.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455{OMG SNIP}

Mr GC, these are goalposts:

Did you previously describe this swamp-lake from the beginning, as a situation that existed in actual reality, or not?

What you just did, was move them.  With lizardmen, no less.  Just FYI.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455And even retards such as yourselves who have never played D&D in any edition...

From where I sit you're sooooo deeply into the ropes at this point, even I'm expecting the ref to step in and do an eight count.  Your opinion of my RPG experience is very much not helping my assessment of this conversation.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455...and therefore would not know even in general terms what these enemies can do

This is quite the run-on sentence you're constructing, by the way.  But please, go on...

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455even with labels befitting of your intellects attached to them

Labels like 'swamp', 'lake', or 'tower'?

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455and who want to both die constantly and never die at the same time

You're flailing at this point...

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455and who want REAL ROLEPLAYING yet want suicide shuffling at the same time and so on down the stupid line

All I'm asking for at this point is a link to the description of the swamp-lake with lizardmen riding fish-mounts.  I can't believe I missed it, it sounds pretty imaginative...

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455can work out if there's that many mother fuckers trying to kill you you might as well just save them the trouble and do it yourself.

I tell you what, let me ask my nearest fish riding lizard man directions to the deepest swamp-lake nearby and I'll drown myself in it.  Deal?

Hey mods, if I'm out of line with my posts, feel free to let me know.

I do feel a little bit evil at this point...

Quote from: Mr. GC;586455Blackscale Lizardfolk

What the fuck is a "blackscale lizardfolk"?  Was that in the colouring book from the 80s?

Quote from: mcbobbo;586478Hey mods, if I'm out of line with my posts, feel free to let me know.

I do feel a little bit evil at this point...

I just wish he would answer my question, because it could put all of this to rest

Quote from: StormBringer;586447I didn't assert anything, I only pointed out that the other assertion wasn't actually solidly valid or accurate.

This sounds a lot like 'nuh-uh!!!!'.  

That's why you make me laugh.  

Quote from: StormBringer;586450Yes, three decades of playing a game that was unplayable for a lot of groups.

Funny - you left out an important part of that quote, but I'll remind everyone what I said.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;586374I think this is a lot of his point.  The game as written tends to be unplayable for a lot of groups.  

In my experience most groups make changes to the 'printed rules' to make the game more fun.  

Since I've been on these boards, I've seen a number of people insist that modifying the rules is required to enjoy the game.  In this very thread someone has indicated that changing the rules is such an inherent expectation that failure to change the rules is 'not playing as intended'.  

And how many times have I heard the refrain, 'play the game, not the rules'?  

How many people have said that they change the rules if they stand in the way of a fun game?

Are you now taking the position that the rules are sacrosanct and should be followed slavishly?  

Color me amazed!!!  

Or are you instead agreeing that people change the rules to keep it/make it fun after 40 years?