Quote from: deadDMwalking;586316I'd like to take this comment and apply it more directly to the 'winning' in D&D.  

Take an enemy like a Gas Spore and a Beholder.  The first is designed to look exactly like a Beholder, so that you can't tell them apart.  One is very deadly, and is likely to kill at least one party member, so misidentifying one is bad.  You could shoot it from a distance (if possible) and then run if it doesn't explode, but that's not always a possibility.  

This is a perfect example.

With a Beholder, if you're going to fight it at all you get in close, then beat it down as quickly as possible while giving it as few actions as possible.

With a Gas Spore, you do the exact opposite. They look the same.

So you see this thing and then you flip a coin to see what you do and if you guess wrong, or the DM doesn't like you you die.

QuoteIf someone is a 'bad player' and they don't contribute, it's okay for them to feel a little bad - maybe they'll learn something.  You think everyone knows how to use a 10-foot pole the first time they walk into a dungeon?  But they can learn from a master.  Once they learn, they can apply that same tactic, often with great success.  

Exactly. Even then though the game tries to fuck with you. 11 foot pole, anyone? It could be successful if it were like Dark Souls where the game is viciously trying to kill you but is being fair about it... instead it's just playing DM vs Player.

Quote from: MGuy;586322When I play I find many GMs to be far more forgiving then I am in all but games that are meant to be high risk, easy fatality games. However even in more "realistic" games I find that GMs will generally try to hand PCs an out. Now while I'm not sure if Mr. GC's numbers are correct or not (as I haven't played 1e and don't own/have access to the books) I do believe that he is arguing with a crowd that very actively sidesteps the rules for profit. So while older edition rules may or may not be meant to kill you (I'd always been told that the rules promote total GM control and player punishments as was intended by the writers) I'm sure that the players here most likely ignored that kind of stuff, or sidestepped it, to make their game work.

It's a standard probability distribution.

Fighter has 1-10 HP, equal chances of each.
10 foot fall does 1-6 damage, equal chances of each.

60 combinations, ranging from 1 HP/1damage to 10 HP/6 damage.

21/60 result in instant death. 35%.

The chances of having any sort of Con bonus on 3d6 in order are about statistically insignificant and if you did have such a bonus, that'd be an example of suicide shuffling giving you a character that can survive more than five minutes.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586247Wow and they call me an asshole DM.

I'm pretty sure no one here has ever called you a DM.

Quote from: Bill;586321So you have actually played 2e? And the players died all the time?

It's not the system, its the dm.

I suggest finding a good dm; it makes all the difference.

In all fairness, the dm may have simply been inexperienced.

Oh it's all about the system the only reason people wouldn't drop like flies is if the DM is ignoring rules. This is the difference between 2e and 3e. I 2e you fail and die if the DM isn't bending rules in your favor. In 3e you can beat the encounters even if they are tough encounters played intelligently. Of course the basketweavers on this form die like gimps even to stock monsters if the DM plays them with half a brain.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586320OMG, stop disagreeing with me me, you're supposed to stay in my head and shut up! :rotfl:

Yes MGuy, they still think I'm you.

Meh.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586327This is a perfect example.

Of how to cull the shitty players, because they fail the test every time.

QuoteThe chances of having any sort of Con bonus on 3d6 in order are about statistically insignificant and if you did have such a bonus, that'd be an example of suicide shuffling giving you a character that can survive more than five minutes.

Essentially, even the slightest chance of 'not winning' is a deal breaker for you.  The result of 'everyone gets a ribbon' upbringing, I guarantee.

Quote from: StormBringer;586335Essentially, even the slightest chance of 'not winning' is a deal breaker for you.  The result of 'everyone gets a ribbon' upbringing, I guarantee.

You guy are to ones who cried foul when Kaelik and MGuy used tactics in thunderdome rather than handing you victory. In the game of 3e gimps get stomped but it's possible to make non-gimps. In 2e everyone is a gimp.

Quote from: StormBringer;586335Essentially, even the slightest chance of 'not winning' is a deal breaker for you.  The result of 'everyone gets a ribbon' upbringing, I guarantee.

Yeah, I think the "everyone is a special snowflake" generational thing has more to do with these attitudes than game rules.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586311You "win" roleplaying games by accomplishing goals you're characters have set for themselves. Conversely you lose by being unable to accomplish your goals, and you can't do anything while you are dead.

I guess I can get that approach. Accomplishing in-game goals and objectives is a way of "winning" at the game. You can "win" by having a great time too, or role playing your character in such a fashion that it felt really satisfying and entertaining to you. When we had these sessions at Vampire when things just flowed without rolling the dice and everyone was just "in the zone", we were raving afterwards - we had "won" the game, in a sense.
 

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586311GC is right about 2e. The books are so full of fuck yous to the players that it's clear they are supposed to fail.

That, however, is such lolwut fuckwitery that I just need to stop and appreciate the taste of your ignorance.

Mmm. Thanks. Tastes like internet bullshit you like to read to remind you how fucking idiotic people can really be. It actually reminds me of the great internet fuckwad theory.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;586325The world is not a predictable place. In any edition you can encounter something that fucks with logic and answer will be " because magic".
If you want a logically based, scientifically oriented world without weird shit then why the hell are you playing D&D at all?  

Magic works in predictable patterns, but nice try.

QuoteThe problem with a great many newer players is that they just take the game far too seriously. So my fighting man found what looked like a cool spear and when he fought the yeti, the thing stabbed him in the back, and he died. Oops lol. So I roll up another guy and play some more. Big fucking deal. Its a game, you win some you lose some.

Right, so you suicide shuffle and do not care about the game. Progress!

QuoteOh certainly because rust monsters, oozes, slimes, and cursed items don't exist in 3.5. :rolleyes:

Sure, those things exist. But they are far less common, and since the mentality has changed from "Troll your players via any and all means imaginable" they are also less emphasized.

QuoteThe most powerful offensive item in 3.5 is a cursed item dseigned to "fuck with the players".  Dust of Sneezing & Choking.  Oh yeah, it looks just like dust of dissapearance then hah hah you are screwed. Arm yourself with a necklace of adaptation and its pure monster killing goodness.

Along the same lines, if we're talking 3.x core here anything that wasn't a stat booster or some sort of extradimensional storage item was worthless. This severely limits the number of cursed items that can fuck with you as that Dust of Disappearance is going straight to the vendor.

QuoteAnyway, rules edition doesn't have much to do with intelligent play. In old school games sometimes we played smart, and sometimes stupid when we didn't want to be burdened with thinking. One can do the same thing in 3.5 or any other system.

Sure it does. You need the actual abilities to do different things. When it's just flip a coin, there is no choice.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;586326SMH

3d6 in order for 6 stats was not a method anyone really used.  An "expert" on older editions would know this.  Almost everyone played with 4d6 drop the lowest, or 3d6 12 times and assigned the best six.

It is the default stat generation. Oh look, more rules that are conveniently being ignored!

QuoteHeh, for a guy who has several times in this post alone accused others of dodging, I can't help not you're doing the same thing.  You said in older editions a +4 or +5 to his was the norm.  You also said 40xp value for a 1 HD monster is the value.  Show me.  How is that misinterpreting you?

Look dude, either put up, or shut up.

Nope, you're still doing it, but thanks for playing!

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;586332Oh it's all about the system the only reason people wouldn't drop like flies is if the DM is ignoring rules. This is the difference between 2e and 3e. I 2e you fail and die if the DM isn't bending rules in your favor. In 3e you can beat the encounters even if they are tough encounters played intelligently. Of course the basketweavers on this form die like gimps even to stock monsters if the DM plays them with half a brain.

No, don't you see? You're supposed to play it as "I reject your rules and substitute my own!" That's the way the game is supposed to be played and if you actually play by the rules you're a dick.

Quote from: StormBringer;586335Of how to cull the shitty players, because they fail the test every time.

What, pray tell are they being tested upon?

Cock sucking skills?

Covertly reading the DM's notes to learn if this is a blob they should melee burn down or a blob they should avoid close combat with at all costs?

No other abilities matter here. You can only hope your DM likes you or that you can read his mind.

QuoteEssentially, even the slightest chance of 'not winning' is a deal breaker for you.  The result of 'everyone gets a ribbon' upbringing, I guarantee.

Essentially, 35% chance the highest HP guy instantly dies to the weakest trap out there is a deal breaker. Essentially, you'll encounter many situations at least as deadly as this, and so the bodies will be hitting that floor all night long.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586320Most tabletop gamers are stupid. This is why I am very selective about who I game with as I loathe stupid people on principle.

I promise, this person is missing teeth because of trying to pull this shit IRL.  And Lord Mistborn said you were the best of the bunch over there.  The best at parroting un-researched and unfounded talking points, it appears.

Quote from: StormBringer;586343I promise, this person is missing teeth because of trying to pull this shit IRL.  And Lord Mistborn said you were the best of the bunch over there.  The best at parroting un-researched and unfounded talking points, it appears.

Ironybringer, the Internet Tough Guy of Classy Posting +3!

Let's give him a round of applause!

*golfclap*

Quote from: Mr. GC;586342Magic works in predictable patterns, but nice try.

No, that's 'science'.

QuoteWhat, pray tell are they being tested upon?

Their ability to not be a shitty player.  I see you have repeatedly failed.

QuoteNo other abilities matter here. You can only hope your DM likes you or that you can read his mind.

Or that you aren't a whiny asshole that has to win every time or they ragequit the game.  I'm seeing a pattern here.

QuoteEssentially, 35% chance the highest HP guy instantly dies to the weakest trap out there is a deal breaker. Essentially, you'll encounter many situations at least as deadly as this, and so the bodies will be hitting that floor all night long.

If only there were a class that could...  I don't know...  detect these kinds of traps?  Or players that aren't shitty and rush into every encounter because they have an over-entitled sense that they must be awesome at every moment because their life away from the table is complete shit due to severe social adjustment problems.

Wait, let me guess:  "Nuh uh, you are!"

Got the page numbers for your assertion that haste forces a system shock roll?  Because until then, you are now wilfully lying about it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;5863263d6 in order for 6 stats was not a method anyone really used.

Indeed. AD&D Method I default is NOT 3d6 in order, but 4d6 drop lowest, assign to taste. There's a significant shift in that sense between OD&D and AD&D.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586342It is the default stat generation. Oh look, more rules that are conveniently being ignored!

It is factually not in AD&D. You sound like an ignorant, fucking idiot full of yourself right now. Wake up.

Quote from: Mr. GC;586346Ironybringer, the Internet Tough Guy of Classy Posting +3!

Let's give him a round of applause!

*golfclap*

No, 'Internet Tough Guy' is where I would threated to knock your teeth out.  I'm merely speculating that with near 100% certainty it has already happened.

I mean, if you can't even get basic internet jargon right, why did you expect to do well at something even more complicated like RPGs?

Quote from: Benoist;586348It is factually not in AD&D. You sound like an ignorant, fucking idiot full of yourself right now. Wake up.

At least he provided page numbers...

Ah.  No, I guess that continues to not happen.

Hey, Ben, you know what it says in the 3.x PHB about gamers that like playing Wizards?  They are goatfucking shit-eaters.