Quote from: BedrockBrendan;585766it depends on the situation, what you are dealing with and what spells you happen to have. If you are in combat and the double movement/attacks from non casters (or casters engaged in melee or ranged combat) it can be a big boost. The more multi-attack well equiped fighters you have around you the better the spell functions. The downside is you age the people (so it is better if they are demihumans).

As I suspected.

You are correct that Haste magically ages the subjects.

What you completely missed is that magical aging forces a system shock check. Failure means you die instantly.

Casting a buff that has a non zero chance of directly killing the people it is meant to help is pants on head retarded.

I haven't played those in over a decade and I remember this, so the fact people actively playing it right now don't is telling.

Now that we've established I've forgotten more about D&D than those here ever knew, care to stop dodging and address my points? This is a general question, not just at Brendan.

Oh and speaking of pants on head retarded posts...

Quote from: StormBringer;585800Luck is the result of proper planning.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;585777It could be three rounds, it could be ten rounds, depending on his armor, dex and luck. But the first level wizard basically has one round is the point. In fact i just played a 1st level wizard in a new 1E campaign. First session i cast my one spell on first round of an encounter, while my party continued to be effective for two or three more encounters.

Both the Fighter and the Wizard die in 1-2 hits at levels 1-2.

Both the Fighter and the Wizard should refrain from even having a name until level 3.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;585806Magic missle is for use on opposing spellcasters, an unerring attack which disrupts their spells in the round it's cast in 1e. Single targets are exactly what it's designed for.

There's a reason I considered titling this, "A Denner discovers chess."

Old edition Sleep is no save, you just lose. It also works against many other things. You were saying?

Quote from: StormBringer;585798Man, I thought the board had some kind of age verification to keep the junior high kids from reading all our naughty words.

I don't know why you thought that, given that you are here and all.

Yes, I will continue reflecting your own pathetic attacks back at you until you actually start trying.

QuoteIn other words, they don't make a character that can 'win' D&D.  Yeah, Sacrosanct started this thread about people like you.  Go step in front of a bus, I doubt you're any less of a douchebag when you are away from the internet.

Aw, the poor little basket weaver is butthurt someone said mean things about his character on the internet. Let me guess: Your Fighter got flattened, so your character sheet died in a fire and now you hate optimizers forever? How's about you go join your failed character, hm?

QuoteWorthless player bitches on internet because no one invites them to game any more in under a round.

So that's why you're here.

QuoteAnd they shitty douchebag player should stop interrupting the games of people with social skills.

Should they also stop speaking to their betters? If yes, kindly shut the fuck up now. If no, you are wrong. Kindly shut the fuck up now.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585755Because people still aren't getting it here are actual examples of both good and bad play:

Good party starts off with divinations. They learn that they are up against:

A dragon.
A druid.
A psychic.
A shadow demon.
A pair of melee machines.
Various mooks.

From this they can deduce that:
They should have at least one person with See Invis and lots of Dispels for dealing with the big guys.
They should have Magic Circle so they are not mind fucked by the psychic.
They should all be flying so they are not one rounded by the melee machines.
They should be able to quickly put Wraithstrike on the melee so as to take out the dragon before it can move, otherwise people will likely die.
The druid is impossible to counter without knowing more about him, same for the shadow demon.
The mooks are dealt with by generic buffs and standard anti ranged defenses.

So they close in on the bell tower, cast Silence on it then take out the mooks quickly, spend a few rounds chasing the shadow demon around while it annoys the hell out of them, then they kill it before it can escape and warn the others. The group could leave now and do part two tomorrow, but let's say they don't.

Instead they keep advancing, take out the mooks outside as quickly as possible, then start systematically sweeping the main building. First they shake off the death blast, then kill its source... then they pick a door and kill either the psychic or the druid before he's really ready... and if they're fast they can get the other.

Then they come out, see they've gotten the dragon's attention already... it lasts long enough to get off one action, but with Greater Mirror Image and Wings of Cover the target survives at 3 HP. The melee machines come out last, see the all flying party, and either die or swim away in shame.

A few healing charges later and the party is fine.

Bad party vs same scenario:

At most they can learn about the dragon in advance. They're not even aware the other enemies exist, and as they'd get spotted 500 feet out from the bell tower they likely never will as the guards there can just rain down arrows and boulders... they won't do much at this range, but neither will the parties' attacks, and since it'd take 12-13 rounds to close the distance and get in there and longer to get out of engagement range the party will likely die even before considering they rang the bell, alerting everything in the area and giving the party about 5 minutes to GTFO or die to an overwhelming encounter. None of the major opponents need even reveal themselves as the group would die to the lowest mooks.

If by some miracle they actually survived that long they get brutally beaten down by the shadow demon... and not even the gods can help them deal with all the OTHER stuff all at once.

We know who's a member of the second party...

Quote from: Mr. GC;585810Both the Fighter and the Wizard die in 1-2 hits at levels 1-2..

Bzzt!  Wrong again.

An average MU with AC 10 (or 9 depending on your edition) and 3 hp will get hit 50% of the time and the average damage from an average weapon (1d8) will kill him.

an average fighter with AC 5 or 4 (or 15-17 depending on edition) will only be hit 20% of the time and will have about 7 hp, taking twice as many successful hits to bring him down.

so when you factor in % to get hit along with hp, it takes 2 attacks to kill the MU (2 attacks * 4.5 damage * 50%)

compare that to the fighter where it takes 8 attacks to bring him down (8 attacks * 4.5 * 20%).  And that's with level 1 characters.  At level 2, the disparity gets even greater as the fighter is in better armor and the hp disparity goes from 4 (7-3) to 8 (14-6).

But hey, never let the facts get in your way.  Hasn't stopped you yet.  But like many other dicks who insist on "winning", you like to ignore the rules that mitigate you from doing a lot of these exploits you like to do.

Quote from: Opaopajr;585792Where's One Horse Town's eye roll when you need it.

There you go. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mr. GC;585810What you completely missed is that magical aging forces a system shock check. Failure means you die instantly.

Casting a buff that has a non zero chance of directly killing the people it is meant to help is pants on head retarded.

I haven't played those in over a decade and I remember this, so the fact people actively playing it right now don't is telling.

Do you also remember the page number in the 1st Edition DMG where you read that?

QuoteYes, I will continue reflecting your own pathetic attacks back at you until you actually start trying.

"No!  I am the cool one here!"
It is just too adorable how you have this smug attitude on the internet, because you have had your dick knocked in the dirt IRL probably a half dozen times.

QuoteShould they also stop speaking to their betters? If yes, kindly shut the fuck up now. If no, you are wrong. Kindly shut the fuck up now.

Maybe you should go back to cutting until you calm down.

QuoteWe know who's a member of the second party...

And we know who isn't a member of any party because no one games with douchebags like you.

I'm pretty sure we will have to rename "The Denner Invasion" to "The Denner Reject Invasion".

Quote from: Sacrosanct;585811Bzzt!  Wrong again.

An average MU with AC 10 (or 9 depending on your edition) and 3 hp will get hit 50% of the time and the average damage from an average weapon (1d8) will kill him.

an average fighter with AC 5 or 4 (or 15-17 depending on edition) will only be hit 20% of the time and will have about 7 hp, taking twice as many successful hits to bring him down.

so when you factor in % to get hit along with hp, it takes 2 attacks to kill the MU (2 attacks * 4.5 damage * 50%)

compare that to the fighter where it takes 8 attacks to bring him down (8 attacks * 4.5 * 20%).  And that's with level 1 characters.  At level 2, the disparity gets even greater as the fighter is in better armor and the hp disparity goes from 4 (7-3) to 8 (14-6).

But hey, never let the facts get in your way.  Hasn't stopped you yet.  But like many other dicks who insist on "winning", you like to ignore the rules that mitigate you from doing a lot of these exploits you like to do.

You're bad at this. Here, let me explain what words mean to you.

A hit is a hit. So when you say the wizard dies in 1 hit, and the fighter dies in 2 hits, and I'm saying both the wizard and the fighter die in 1-2 hits you are agreeing and conceding the point.

You do not go prattling on on some tangent about the inherently intellectually dishonest and most definitely not hits weighted averages, get the numbers wrong (rofl at 20% chance to be hit... try 40-50%), and then claim you win.

But thanks for playing!

But let's say you got AC 21 at level 1. It is possible, just not immediately upon character creation as you'd need to spend most of your wealth on the way to level 2 on better armor.

First you have to make it past the randomly die in 1-2 hits phase... then you still randomly die in 1-2 hits... the only difference, and the only thing that might save you is that to have AC 21 at level 1 you'd have to have no offense to speak of, and therefore everything would just ignore you and go kill someone else.

You're a Fighter, the last thing you need is more reasons for people to ignore you and continue on as if you don't exist.

Don't like newer editions? In older editions it takes more fights to level, meaning more chances for someone to get hit 1-2 times and die instantly. You also die at 0, not -10, so the somewhat lower enemy damage doesn't matter.

But do keep attempting to cherry pick and dodge, I can slap you around all day!

Quote from: StormBringer;585815Do you also remember the page number in the 1st Edition DMG where you read that?

Do you? You know, since you're such a big old edition player, surely you know the basics like system shock?

If nothing else you should know it because the old editions were all about killing the characters in just about every way imaginable, so anyone that's played it a while should be intimately familiar with all the bizarre ways of dying.

Quote"No!  I am the cool one here!"
It is just too adorable how you have this smug attitude on the internet, because you have had your dick knocked in the dirt IRL probably a half dozen times.

You seem fascinated by my cock. No, I will not insert it into the barrel you are busy sucking on.

QuoteAnd we know who isn't a member of any party because no one games with douchebags like you.

I DM a game, play another, and am indirectly responsible for around a dozen more games.

Just because I will tell gimps like you to get the fuck out doesn't mean non gimps have a problem with me.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585816You're bad at this. Here, let me explain what words mean to you.

A hit is a hit. So when you say the wizard dies in 1 hit, and the fighter dies in 2 hits, and I'm saying both the wizard and the fighter die in 1-2 hits you are agreeing and conceding the point.

You do not go prattling on on some tangent about the inherently intellectually dishonest and most definitely not hits weighted averages, get the numbers wrong (rofl at 20% chance to be hit... try 40-50%), and then claim you win.

But thanks for playing!

But let's say you got AC 21 at level 1. It is possible, just not immediately upon character creation as you'd need to spend most of your wealth on the way to level 2 on better armor.

First you have to make it past the randomly die in 1-2 hits phase... then you still randomly die in 1-2 hits... the only difference, and the only thing that might save you is that to have AC 21 at level 1 you'd have to have no offense to speak of, and therefore everything would just ignore you and go kill someone else.

You're a Fighter, the last thing you need is more reasons for people to ignore you and continue on as if you don't exist.

Don't like newer editions? In older editions it takes more fights to level, meaning more chances for someone to get hit 1-2 times and die instantly. You also die at 0, not -10, so the somewhat lower enemy damage doesn't matter.

But do keep attempting to cherry pick and dodge, I can slap you around all day!

wow.  So not only do you not have a clue as to how D&D is played, you also don't understand how math works.  Big shocker there.

If a PC has AC 16, and an opponent doesn't have any bonuses to hit him, then there is only a 20% chance to hit.  In AD&D, if a PC has an AC of 4 and the creature has a THAC0 of 20, it's a 20% chance to hit.

Do I really need to explain 1st grade math to you?

Quote from: Mr. GC;585816You do not go prattling on on some tangent about the inherently intellectually dishonest and most definitely not hits weighted averages, get the numbers wrong (rofl at 20% chance to be hit... try 40-50%), and then claim you win.

"Stop using math!  Math is hard!"

d20 = 5% per number.  So, if you need to roll 15 or better, that is 6 numbers x 5% = 30%.  Rolling 17 or better is 20%.  19 or better is 10%.

So, a 1HD monster needs to roll 15 or better to hit AC4.  6 numbers x 5% = 30%.

If an attack does 1-8 points of damage, the average is 4.5 ((1+8)/2=4.5)

If that attack only lands 30% of the time, that would be the same as doing 1.35 points of damage every single round.  (4.5 x .3 = 1.35)

A fighter has an average of ((1+10)/2) 5.5 hit points.  That works out to 4.07 hits before the Fighter drops.

When you go to correct someone for having the 'wrong' numbers, you really should double check that you have the right ones instead of pulling them out of your ass.  You might also want to brush up on this game that you have forgotten more about than anyone here knows, because I am predicting some very, very rookie mistakes about how things actually work in your near future.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585810As I suspected.

You are correct that Haste magically ages the subjects.

What you completely missed is that magical aging forces a system shock check. Failure means you die instantly.

Casting a buff that has a non zero chance of directly killing the people it is meant to help is pants on head retarded.

I haven't played those in over a decade and I remember this, so the fact people actively playing it right now don't is telling.

Your conclusion assumes an awful about people who play AD&D and yourself lot for one small data point. You know the rules for haste and system shock. Congrats.

I will freely admit system shock wasn't in my mind when I answered the question. It is one of those things peope point out about haste after you have been playing for some time and most just assume it was a design oversight and ignore it. For stuff like teleport, chances of death make sense because it is so useful. But for haste it doesn't really seem justified to me.

Pointing to a commonly overlooked rule, doesn't really prove much to me.just shows that you have probably spent a lot of time debating this stuff in forums (a google of haste and system shock shows it is commonly brought up on message boards).

Quote from: StormBringer;585822So, a 1HD monster needs to roll 15 or better to hit AC4.  6 numbers x 5% = 30%.

A monster with a THAC0 of 20 would need a 16 to hit AC 4. (20 AC 0, 19 AC1, 18 AC 2, 17 AC 3, etc).  So that's 5 numbers, or 25%.  

QuoteIf an attack does 1-8 points of damage, the average is 4.5 ((1+8)/2=4.5)

If that attack only lands 30% of the time, that would be the same as doing 1.35 points of damage every single round.  (4.5 x .3 = 1.35)

A fighter has an average of ((1+10)/2) 5.5 hit points.  That works out to 4.07 hits before the Fighter drops.

I gave the fighter a +1 con bonus in my example, and rounded up for both MU and fighter.  But yeah, this is pretty much it, and a fundamental flaw in his reasoning that the fighter and MU would be hit an equal amount of times.  Which we both know is functionally retarded.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585819Do you? You know, since you're such a big old edition player, surely you know the basics like system shock?

If nothing else you should know it because the old editions were all about killing the characters in just about every way imaginable, so anyone that's played it a while should be intimately familiar with all the bizarre ways of dying.

AD&D isn't the only edition. There is no system shock roll in B/X and the haste spell provides the same benefits.

I'm in an uncharacteristicly bad mood and you jock-straps are pissing me off with your crap.

Anyone would think the thread title was 'Go on - win at an internet forum thread that might once have had a passing resemblance to a discussion point, but even that is pushing credulity.'

I think we should fold the discussion about firearms into it and how the accuracy/non-accuracy of fucking muskets ('cos Wikepedia!) might factor into the win/non-win equation of d&d, sorry, i mean forum threads.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;585811Bzzt!  Wrong again.

An average MU with AC 10 (or 9 depending on your edition) and 3 hp will get hit 50% of the time and the average damage from an average weapon (1d8) will kill him.

Mr. GC already addressed this, but I figured it couldn't hurt to clarify.  First, he did say 1-2 hits kills for both, so the percentage of attacks that hit are irrelevant.  But assuming a magic user with 3 hit points, being hit by a weapon dealing 1d8 points of damage, the Wizard will survive the first hit 25% of the time.  He'll survive two hits 1.5% of the time.  So, it's pretty fair to say he'll die in 1-2 hits (98.5% of the time).  

Assuming a Fighter has 7 hit points, he'll survive the first two hits 23% of the time.

It's probably fair to say the Fighter will surive 1-3 hits, compared to the 1-2 hits that the Wizard can survive.  But the point stands - combat is pretty swingy, and a single blow can kill a magic user or a fighter in a single hit, with luck.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;585811an average fighter with AC 5 or 4 (or 15-17 depending on edition) will only be hit 20% of the time and will have about 7 hp, taking twice as many successful hits to bring him down.

Now this is where things get screwy.  Let's say AC 5 and the opponent has a THACO of 20.  He is hit about 25% of the time, but 1-3 hits is not necessarily twice as many as 1-2 hits.  You can talk about average damage, but that's not the only possiblity.  The Average Fighter might survive twice as many blows as the average Magic User, but to the player, that hardly matters.  The question is how many blows did my Fighter survive?  And the more often you come into combat, the more often you're putting yourself to the test.  And if you happen to believe that the Fighter's job is to take blows, well, your chance of getting hit and dying at 1st level go up exponentially.  

I absolutely believe in the benefits of an analysis of 'expected outcomes', but you have to at least acknowledge that a 'non-average outcome' is possible - and the swingier those numbers, the more often that happens.  If the Fighter might go down to a single blow, might survive 8 attacks, or might survive 16 attacks, you're talking about the definition of 'swingy' - which is why survivability is so questionable.  You appear to be making Mr. GC's point for him.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585810Now that we've established I've forgotten more about D&D than those here ever knew, care to stop dodging and address my points? This is a general question, not just at Brendan.

Not sure whoch points i failed to address.

QuoteBoth the Fighter and the Wizard die in 1-2 hits at levels 1-2.

Both the Fighter and the Wizard should refrain from even having a name until level 3.

I haven't bothered to check the math on this, but this seems a very questionable conclusion to me just going by experience and the fact that a wizard has d4 hp and fighter has d10 with more con bonus potential. it will depend on what you are fighting of course.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;585829Mr. GC already addressed this, but I figured it couldn't hurt to clarify.  First, he did say 1-2 hits kills for both, so the percentage of attacks that hit are irrelevant.  

:jaw-dropping:


It's completely relevant.  If you have a character that is only hit 10% of the time and has 10 hp, he will last in combat 5x LONGER than the character with 10 hp but gets hit half the time.

That's basic math dude.