Sorry for the rant, but I've been seeing this a lot lately and it's really starting to get irritating.

If your party runs into an encounter (whether a monster, a ticked off guard or merchant, a puzzle, etc), you aren't the "winning" character by being able to cast a spell to get past it.  You don't "win" by being able to pick the lock.  It's not a competition between you and the other players.

I mostly see this from the wizard crowd, although it applies to everyone.  If you have the attitude that you're hot shit because you "win" at an encounter, then everyone loses because the other players won't put up with your smug ass for very long.  Especially if you're the smug wizard who thinks the party better bow to your whim (rest when you need it, etc) whether or not it's convenient for the rest of the group.

D&D is not a game to keep score between the players.  This attitude among some people that they must have the most powerful character of the group, and that they must "win" every encounter is a blight upon our hobby.

I'm very sad that it's even considered necessary to post that.

They used to put that right up front in the basic books....

I wonder if this is a natural result of the way the game has changed, over the years.  The emphasis on the encounter as a set piece with a definite battle-map, PCs and monsters with very defined actions/abilities/moves that can be taken in that context, an emphasis on pre-defined tactics and sometimes even gamey "solutions" to the encounter, et cetera.

None of those things are necessarily bad, but go too far in that direction at you stop thinking like an imaginary character in an imaginary situation, and more like a person playing and re-playing a level of Angry Birds trying to get an optimal solution (three stars and beat the previous a high score).

I remember one bad night at the local game club way back in 1982. We had some new people show up and two of the D&D tables erupted into rules lawyer bitch fest.

I was in 8th grade. I climbed on a table and read the preamble to the PHB 1e in my new, post-puberty voice as loud as I could to drown out the idiots. And then my best friend to be hurled a pizza slice at my head.

People who need to "win at D&D" aren't new. We just lost most of them to video games over the decades.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;585180I wonder if this is a natural result of the way the game has changed, over the years.  The emphasis on the encounter as a set piece with a definite battle-map, PCs and monsters with very defined actions/abilities/moves that can be taken in that context, an emphasis on pre-defined tactics and sometimes even gamey "solutions" to the encounter, et cetera.

None of those things are necessarily bad, but go too far in that direction at you stop thinking like an imaginary character in an imaginary situation, and more like a person playing and re-playing a level of Angry Birds trying to get an optimal solution (three stars and beat the previous a high score).

I think it's also a consequence of the rise of optimization forums/communities on Wizard's site and elsewhere. If they're not tuning up to beat encounters, then what are they tuning those characters up for?

(Off topic: Philotomy, is your site down or is it just me?)

Quote from: Spinachcat;585186People who need to "win at D&D" aren't new. We just lost most of them to video games over the decades.

And good riddance, I say.

Now how do we flush them out of WoW? I really hope someday I'll find a group that's not in a maddening hurry to clear every dungeon. I want to enjoy the scenery and poke around.

Because D&D is a game about a bunch of losers failing to accomplish any of their goals, being constantly killed by the enemies they encounter, and being made jokes of by their entire world...

Oh wait, it's not.

It's a game about a bunch of badassess succeeding... winning, if you'd prefer. Because when you kill the Orcs, as opposed to the Orcs killing you that is exactly what is happening.

If some idiot is competing with his own team he is exactly that - an idiot. However a team is also exactly that - a team. Not Mighty McWizard and The Three Stooges. If one guy - any one guy, is doing all the fucking work then it's not a team. If some guy is dragging down the group, you're better off without him. And usually yes, that guy is the Fighter, as his net contribution to the party is that the Cleric gets to see less of the future and summon fewer angels. But this isn't class specific either - a Wizard in 3.x that thinks Fireball is the best thing ever is at least as bad, if not worse, and a pre 3rd Wizard that doesn't use Fireball is about the same.

Regardless, "winning" is a very real thing you do by accomplishing your goals, killing your enemies, and not dying in the process. It's team based and not individual based but it's still winning.

Likewise, losing is a real thing that happens when you get a party that thinks otherwise and is just so bad they get blown away in round 1.

Quote from: Mr. GC;585191Because D&D is a game about a bunch of losers failing to accomplish any of their goals, being constantly killed by the enemies they encounter, and being made jokes of by their entire world...

Oh wait, it's not.

It's a game about a bunch of badassess succeeding... winning, if you'd prefer. Because when you kill the Orcs, as opposed to the Orcs killing you that is exactly what is happening.

If some idiot is competing with his own team he is exactly that - an idiot. However a team is also exactly that - a team. Not Mighty McWizard and The Three Stooges. If one guy - any one guy, is doing all the fucking work then it's not a team. If some guy is dragging down the group, you're better off without him. And usually yes, that guy is the Fighter, as his net contribution to the party is that the Cleric gets to see less of the future and summon fewer angels. But this isn't class specific either - a Wizard in 3.x that thinks Fireball is the best thing ever is at least as bad, if not worse, and a pre 3rd Wizard that doesn't use Fireball is about the same.

Regardless, "winning" is a very real thing you do by accomplishing your goals, killing your enemies, and not dying in the process. It's team based and not individual based but it's still winning.

Likewise, losing is a real thing that happens when you get a party that thinks otherwise and is just so bad they get blown away in round 1.

I'm pretty sure that was the point of the OP.

I WON D&D, and it was ADVANCED! Hehe.

Somebody had that as their sig. I think it was Trent Foster. Made me laugh.

Chevy Chase won D&D.

You are incorrect.  Annie clearly wins at D&D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRjNl64zYxI

Quote from: Benoist;585195I WON D&D, and it was ADVANCED! Hehe.

Somebody had that as their sig. I think it was Trent Foster. Made me laugh.

Yeah that's the quote from the D&D episode of Community.  Which you really should watch.  It was awesome.

http://www.vureel.com/video/24162/Community-S02E14

Quote from: Mistwell;585197You are incorrect.  Annie clearly wins at D&D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRjNl64zYxI

lol, yes. But Chevy declared it.

Much like life there are loosers and then there is everybody else.

Quote from: Mistwell;585197You are incorrect.  Annie clearly wins at D&D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRjNl64zYxI

I hate these kind of players more than anyone else.  More than rules lawyers trying to get away with infinite power loopholes, more than cheaters, more than killer DMs.

Back to the subject, I agree and disagree.  I disagree that there's no conditions for wins and losses.  There are definite goals to a "successful" dungeon crawl and adventure.  If you clear out a dungeon, get the loot, and kill the dragon, all without anybody dying, I'd consider that a clear "win" for the PCs.

The OP's point is more addressed towards sportsmanship, and not rubbing your system mastery/powerful character in everybody's face.  That, and cooperation between players is vital instead of a one-man show.  This I agree with.

How to win at D&D:

Step 1: Play D&D.

Step 2: Do not allow this to affect your hygeine, fashion sense, or social skills. Date lots of girls, have lots of sex, and get a job you enjoy and pays well enough for you to live comfortably.

Step 3: Win!