Quote from: I run with scissors;584826You take money, you stop being a hobbyist. In the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling.

As opposed to the panhandling that involves begging rich people for money?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital

Or begging for money from your mom and dad, relatives, or a rich friend?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_investment

Oh the poor benighted common man just isn't capable of handling a financial decision involving an investment in somebody's idea. We must be protected from our own stupidity.

Like my gatekeeper comment on the number of retro-clone, think about what you are saying. Do you really want the traditional way of raising capital to remain THE way? The only way? That if you had a good idea that the only method is to go and beg rich people? Where do you think the capital for most new businesses comes from?

Venture capitalists are just as prone to fads and suckers as anybody else. Just as anal (or nice) as the next person
http://www.paulgraham.com/venturecapital.html

Should we be Pollyannas about Kickstarter of course not. It new, people are still figuring out the best way of protecting both the creators and customers. But at it core Kickstarter is a damn good idea, one that I welcome. And now I seen it in operation I rather not do without it even if I never start a project myself. Because I think in the end this is a communication technology that the Internet enables that will change our lives for the better.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;584837Yes, a single reaction roll which applies to, "batches of 5, 10, 25, or even 100 [npcs] where appropriate."

You're shifting the goalposts here, and I'm sorely tempted to conclude that you're not arguing in good faith.

I'm baffled by this assessment on ACKs. I wish I owned it, as I already love Birthright. But from the previous topic we had about ACK v. (I forgot the other game already) I didn't get the impression that ACKs was doing anything all that different, just readjusted.

Has anyone here played Birthright? You adventure all the time, but you also *must* delegate all the time -- because you can't be all places at once. So you can, and often do adventure, role playing out important scenes. But for things delegated to your functionaries you roll off against a target number (v. ACKs charted table, I guess). And the player is given the choice when to do so. If a player prefers to "adventure out" diplomatic negotiations or mercantile contracts over cleaning out a bandit lair, that's their choice (and it may surprise some here that has been the predominant choice from my players).

What is so problematic about this? Some prefer to play the role of haggle bills of lading for materiel acquisition instead of going into "another fucking underground lair," (direct player quote. The other was even better: "Combat? Fuck combat."). The conquerors and kings remembered as competent were the ones who could keep their victories.

And about dungeons and wilderness info being part of the package: AD&D 1e PHB DMG, Dungeoneer Guide, Wilderness Guide, Campaign Sourcebook & Catacomb Guide, etc. Seriously, you could waste your time rewriting that stuff which people can already get, or you could get on with the business of making your product a reason why I'd buy it. Even if you did waste your time rewriting that stuff, how many in the OSR community would piddle on it comparing how it failed to compare with past versions. Just shut up and point people to past products that are going to be labeled the gold standard regardless of how much effort you put into such sections. If players want it, they'll find it. If they don't want it, they'll never miss it.

Ok so I reread Chapters 6 and 8 on the wilderness and dungeons. Chapter 8 is the one with the real meat here, since this is where you get the actual methodology to create an hex map, include some locations of adventure including dungeons of different sizes and purposes, and the get down to building thos dungeons per se. The whole affair seems rather dogmatic to me, but not badly explained either. Two things jumped to me as I reread these sections: (1) the lack of concrete examples is here kind of glaring, by which I mean you have occasionally a fictitious GM come up with his sandbox bit by bit as the steps are all laid out progressively, but this doesn't seem concrete like if two sample hex maps following the steps as outlined at the beginning of the chapter, and one sample dungeon with graph paper map had been included with the rather terse advice there, and (2) the dungeon part which basically assumes you're going to get dungeon maps and lairs from magazines and the web and only occasionally build your own, which here basically means randomly populating rooms and the like.

So the bottom line is that there is a top down methodology to the sandbox explained, that there is some advice and generators included for the dungeon, but mostly due to the lack of concrete examples of application of the guidelines and a rather puzzling method of dungeon generation, I'm not sure it brings the full set of tools to the fledging GM and and basically teaches the right stuff here.

Quote from: kythri;584852Is there a faction of folks that are worried about this?

Haven't seen much focused worry on Dwimmermount but I have seen some back sass about how James must be living large on the profits and a fair amount questioning the margins built into corporate Kickstarters like OGRE.

Those campaigns are done. What gets me bloviating now is whether shifting "excess" funding to a pre-order format or simply disclosing profits might help future campaigns avoid the backtalk -- especially when the reward process hits a snag and people wonder where "their" money went.

Because if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers.

Theoretically the premium rewards and bonus goals should be the way that redistribution happens. I suspect the Dwimmermount margins on the big packages aren't extremely high, myself. But the average fan can't tell. They see a book that cost an estimated $10k to produce taking in $48k before it hits the press, they're going to wonder where their book is.

Quote from: estar;584864Oh the poor benighted common man just isn't capable of handling a financial decision involving an investment in somebody's idea. We must be protected from our own stupidity.

Be nice. All "corporate" game publishers were started on friends & family funding and over a long enough time line nearly all of them have gone bust. Even so, F&F will always be a more attractive way for true capital -- as opposed to philanthropists -- to play this theme than Kickstarter will ever be.

If you want to "invest" in a game idea, approach creative and buy in.

If you're creative, get the "common man" to Kickstart you up in exchange for a free copy down the road. You keep all the profits and he can feel proud of being a patron of the arts.

Maybe there should be a Careerstarter website.

"Hey, I wanna be a full-time RPG designer. My target number is $30,000! Help me out and then I'll get some Kickstarter projects going and you can help me fund those too."

Quote from: Endless Flight;584886Maybe there should be a Careerstarter website. "Hey, I wanna be a full-time RPG designer. My target number is $30,000! Help me out and I'll then I'll get some Kickstarter projects going and you can help me fund those too."

That's that "sly wink" emoticon I was looking for. I see a bold new world ahead, gentlemen and ladies. Kickstarter Consultants. [EDIT TO ADD: Kickstarter Pay-for-Click Content Farming. Kickstarter Outsourced Fulfillment Services.] Kickstarter Insurance. Kickstarter Ratings Agencies. Kickstarter Incubators. Kickstarterstarters.

Those who survive will be RICH!

Quote from: noisms;584692I don't think for a single second that I'd be much more productive than James if somebody had already given me forty grand to work on what I was doing, instead of promising it to me after I'd finished.

This is mostly tangential to what you're saying here, but I think one interesting aspect of Kickstarter's methodology is that it tends to create the impression that the people behind them are getting a lot more money than they really are. (Because there are, of course, costs associated with delivering the rewards.)

For example, my project on 8-Bit Funding pulled in $3,800. How much of that is going into my pocket when all is said and done? -$5,000. (Art and printing are expensive, yo.)

I'm sure JM is keeping a healthier personal profit line from his $48,000 kickstarter than I am from mine. But, ultimately, printing hundreds of books and paying for art and cartography are expensive.

I think a lot of people see "$48,000 kickstarter" and think "wow, he just earned my yearly salary for doing this book". But, in reality, that's not what happened. Once the expenses are paid, JM will take home only a small fraction of the total amount displayed on the Kickstarter homepage for his project.

Quote from: Settembrini;584460True story, recently an American scientist[!] asked me how to calculate the volume 100 000 tons of water have...
when I started to explain that a  1x1x1m cube is a ton = 1000kg = 1000l of water of water, he replied "that can't be true, my pickup is a 3.5 ton truck and the freight area is much longer" ...etc. etc.
So he ignores  and denies any merit of the metric system because of his mental image of his pickup truck. I shit you not.

You are aware that American scientists use the metric system, right? Either the person you were talking to wasn't a scientist, or you are embellishing the facts.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584893You are aware that American scientists use the metric system, right? Either the person you were talking to wasn't a scientist, or you are embellishing the facts.

I think he must have meant an American Scientologist

Quote from: TristramEvans;584840No, you start a company and begin making enough profits to owe taxes or hire employees, you stop being a hobbyist. Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur

You do realize that under United States tax code money generated via Kickstarter must be declared. As an independent contractor you are exempt up to $700, and anything above that has to be declared.

So if you bring in $48,000 in a kickstarter campaign, you will have to declare that. With this much money you would be better off incorporating, in order to protect your personal assets from any business wrong doings.

I'm just a troll, so what do I know.

QuoteWhich is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?

You can do what you want, but you cannot expect to not be considered performing the activities of a business when you bring in funds in such  an amount that it bankrolls your project.

IRWS

Quote from: estar;584864As opposed to the panhandling that involves begging rich people for money?

The link was just a highlight to the other way of thinking. I do not subscribe to it.

QuoteShould we be Pollyannas about Kickstarter of course not. It new, people are still figuring out the best way of protecting both the creators and customers. But at it core Kickstarter is a damn good idea, one that I welcome. And now I seen it in operation I rather not do without it even if I never start a project myself. Because I think in the end this is a communication technology that the Internet enables that will change our lives for the better.

I agree. My belief however is that if you are going to do something like this, you must at least think in terms you are business. Taking money up front, instead of after a product is done, brings with it much risk.

IRWS

QuoteBecause if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers..

Making a profit doesn't automatically make it into a business. There are alot of other factors to make that determination. The distinction between hobby and business is a legal one, and is between them and The IRS.

In any case, I don't think it's wrong for hobbyists to earn some money off their work.

Having a hobby doesn't mean you can't earn some money from it. I don't know why so many gamers seem to think that making money is evil, but I see this shit all the time. If you paid what you consider a fair amount, and when the project is completed get the value you paid for, then that's what matters. If it diminishes your enjoyment of a product if someone makes money off of it, then go off the grid, join a hippie commune, and make everything by hand and pat yourself on the back for avoiding ever allowing someone to make an evil, evil profit.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584897You do realize that under United States tax code money generated via Kickstarter must be declared. As an independent contractor you are exempt up to $700, and anything above that has to be declared.

Yeah. Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales. Or that I gave two craps about those FBI warnings when I let my friends borrowed my dvds. The American legal system is a mess with a bunch of shit piled on top. It's nothing to do with day to day reality.

Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.

QuoteI'm just a troll, so what do I know.

well said.

QuoteYou can do what you want, but you cannot expect to not be considered performing the activities of a business when you bring in funds in such  an amount that it bankrolls your project.

"A project" does not a business make.