Quote from: econobus;584790It would've been nice if the Dwimmermount campaign was structured in such a way that it actually CUT OFF funding after it met its goal and either moved late backers onto a true "pre-order" list or returned the excess money.

So in short a patronage type deal. This would have taken care of a lot of problems.

QuoteI know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.

Or ideally, he could have been given some money up front, sort of a good faith type investment. He could then be told, go write it and finish it. Then launch said campaign, get the first printing out to the backers, as well as begin selling to those who did not take part in the campaign.

QuoteI hear you there. The autarch thread made me a little nauseous, gamers eager to blame themselves and each other for backing this project. If I had the time I'd create a role-playing game called GAMEPRO and charge people money to pretend to be "freelancers" and "star bloggers" and "patrons" and "half-elf publishers." Come to think of it, though, that's how the industry already works.

Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. That is what you describe above.

IRWS

Quote from: Benoist;584767Hm. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. The assumption the game seems to be based on is that there is a start of a game that is basically classic D&D with dungeon and wilderness adventures, the accumulation of wealth that allows you to get a domain or zone of influence in the campaign world, and then the development of those holdings as the campaign's end game, where you basically administer the land and become "king".

That's what I said upthread.

Quote from: Benoist;584767I think the tools provided are not emulative of the middle ages the way a Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe tried to be (that d20 sourcebook is awesome, btw),

You know, so many people are referring to this book I might just pick it up and give it a look. Does it get into domain management territory?

Quote from: Benoist;584767and can work if as a DM you can fill in the blanks and make the role playing and situations happen around the die roll(s) to take over the thieves' guild. It's similar in that sense to the Assassination tables of AD&D, and I don't see a critical problem with that.

Only that's not what the table in question does. Egads, am I the only one here who's actually read the book?

Quote from: Benoist;584767So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?

I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.

Now this is a fair point. I came to ACKS already somewhat familiar with old school adventuring; I didn't really give the dungeon and wilderness hexmap generation bits a fair shake, or even a proper read.

Then I again, I do recall the old Mentzer D&D books, and retro-clones like S&W and LL being similarly minimalistic. To the best of my recollection, only AD&D 1e gets into the detail you mention.

Quote from: Benoist;584789I'm going to actually reread the ACKS parts on the dungeon and wilderness to make up my mind on this.

That makes two of us.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584794So in short a patronage type deal. This would have taken care of a lot of problems.

Sure. A big tip jar, no folderol about "reward tiers" and "bonus goals." Help me make it, and when I do, you get a free copy.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584794Or ideally, he could have been given some money up front, sort of a good faith type investment. He could then be told, go write it and finish it. Then launch said campaign, get the first printing out to the backers, as well as begin selling to those who did not take part in the campaign.

That kind of transparency would be cool but the discipline there would've had to come from him. Basically anything above the $10k would shift from the "help me make Dwimmermount" hobby bucket into some kind of corporate "now I'm a business" bucket.

No support for that kind of thing on KS yet but maybe it's time there was. [sly smirky face, I can never get those to work]

Quote from: I run with scissors;584794Gamer Stockholm Syndrome. That is what you describe above.

Yeah, I knew you had a phrase for it. Whatever it is when you're so hungry to mingle with the "professionals" that you'll do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to straddle the gap between the fans and the creative. Mary Sue, meet Patty Hearst.

Check your private messages, econobus (top of the page, the button that says in red "new PM").

Quote from: econobus;584798Sure. A big tip jar, no folderol about "reward tiers" and "bonus goals." Help me make it, and when I do, you get a free copy.

This would take care of a lot of problems with not just this project, but the hobbyists as well. Plus, it would set expectations low enough, that there is not a need for a deadline, per say. Simply communicate with your patrons, and get to work.

QuoteThat kind of transparency would be cool but the discipline there would've had to come from him. Basically anything above the $10k would shift from the "help me make Dwimmermount" hobby bucket into some kind of corporate "now I'm a business" bucket.

Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional. You are an inventor who tinkers in your workshop and have created a product so good, that people buy it. You realize that you can sell more, but need the capital to do so. You launch a kickstarter.

A kickstarter, in my view, does not work with creative types, for the most part.

QuoteYeah, I knew you had a phrase for it. Whatever it is when you're so hungry to mingle with the "professionals" that you'll do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to straddle the gap between the fans and the creative. Mary Sue, meet Patty Hearst.

Yup. I plan on fleshing it out fully over at Dwimmerdust. I have a blog post that is about half way there.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584801Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional.

I'm sometimes told this is exactly what Kickstarter is for: start-up capital to turn a fun idea into a commercial reality. Unfortunately, it's also an area where Kickstarter actively refuses to get involved as a traditional business incubator, so the hobbyist can find himself with a lot of cash and no idea how to put it to use.

Stage 1, collect the underpants. Stage 2, hold the Kickstarter. Stage 4, business.

[...]

Dwimmerdust scares me a little because as a snapshot of this insane thing we call "game" it could turn out being really, really good. No pressure or anything.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584801Which is why I feel Kickstarters are not suited for hobbyists, unless they want to make a go at shifting from hobbyist to professional. IRWS

Other way around. Kickstarter is for hobbyists, and its not suited for backers who expect hobbyists to be like professional printers.

Quote from: econobus;584811Dwimmerdust scares me a little because as a snapshot of this insane thing we call "game" it could turn out being really, really good. No pressure or anything.

Dwimmerdust scares me, because of what it has become. Spite is a good motivator, and the more I work on it, the more fun I have. All I know, the content generation is easy. The lack of the plan has helped me greatly.

IRWS

Quote from: TristramEvans;584814Other way around. Kickstarter is for hobbyists, and its not suited for backers who expect hobbyists to be like professional printers.

From Kickstarter:

QuoteWhat's Kickstarter?

Kickstarter is a funding platform for creative projects. Everything from films, games, and music to art, design, and technology. Kickstarter is full of ambitious, innovative, and imaginative projects that are brought to life through the direct support of others.

Since our launch on April 28, 2009, over $350 million has been pledged by more than 2.5 million people, funding nearly 30,000 creative projects. If you like stats, there's lots more here.

Source: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#WhatKick

Quote...Kickstarter's model combines investment and charity: typically, donors get some benefit in return for their gifts, such as copies of the movies or music produced, shares in a rooftop farm, or contact with artists.

Source: http://www.technologyreview.com/review/422132/start-me-up/

You take money, you stop being a hobbyist. In the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:

"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"

There are places in the world where they build airports with that attitude...

Quote from: The Butcher;584758That's the one I referred to in my post, and like I said, it's not a "take over the organization" table. It's a "what happens when you take over the organization"; a reaction roll, really.

Yes, a single reaction roll which applies to, "batches of 5, 10, 25, or even 100 [npcs] where appropriate."

Quote from: I run with scissors;584826From Kickstarter:

(snip)

None of which disputes what I said.

QuoteYou take money, you stop being a hobbyist.

No, you start a company and begin making enough profits to owe taxes or hire employees, you stop being a hobbyist. Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur

QuoteIn the end I agree that there should be an end to online panhandling.

IRWS

Which is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?

Quote from: TristramEvans;584840Setting up a lemonade stand in your front lawn doesn't make you a business entrepreneur

Tell that to Susie.

Quote from: econobus;584790I know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.

Is there a faction of folks that are worried about this?

I mean, my only concern about the money that someone makes on this is that whatever portion is required to deliver the backer "rewards" is used to do that.  If a successful Kickstarter can net the creator a fat wad of cash after meeting their financial responsibilities for the project, then, awesome.

I mean, isn't that part of what this is all about?  Making some money on a good idea?

Quote from: TristramEvans;584840Which is of course ridiculous. People should be prevented from an activity because a few other people don't want to participate?

According to the douche author, yes.

Unsurprising, though, given the inferred "Awwww, poor independent filmmakers are being overlooked or edged out on Kickstarter because it's not exclusive to hipster jackasses that want to make a documentary about some shit nobody cares about" comment in the article.