Quote from: Exploderwizard;583991You may be misinformed about the clones. The original purpose of the clones was to provide an in-print ruleset to support the production of supplemental material for classic edition gaming.

The clones that mimic TSR editions most directly; OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry whitebox, and Labyrinth Lord have always been and are still absolutely free in electronic format. Only if you want a print copy in your hands do you have to pay a dime for these.

What this does is support original supplement material such as adventure modules, to be created and sold to both players of the clone systems AND to players of the original rulesets they were based on.

Really the whole idea behind OSRIC was to be able to commercially produce brand new AD&D modules.

I for one am very happy that material 100% compatible for various old TSR games is available in the market again.

A bit later came the not-exactly clones of old school systems that were created as a for-profit enterprise (for the rules themselves) .

I believe c&c and hackmaster predate osric by quite a bit.

I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.

It's kind of "wtf" to me. I use both AD&D and OSRIC at the game table. I have stuff like Anomalous Subsurface Environment next to Rappan Athuk next to Ruins of Undermountain next to Castle Zagyg next to T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil next to Bottle City on my shelf right now. Isn't it all old school, vintage gaming?

Quote from: Teazia;583996I believe c&c and hackmaster predate osric by quite a bit.

C&C and Hackmaster are not clones.

Hackmaster was produced as a parody with permission by WOTC, which is why it had to have so much goofy stuff added to the AD&D frame.

C&C is what happens when AD&D and 3E love each other very much and forget to use protection

Quote from: Exploderwizard;584001C&C is what happens when AD&D and 3E love each other very much and forget to use protection

and then 3e throws AD&D out and tells it to never come back, that it'll raise C&C all on its own.

Quote from: Benoist;583997I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.

There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.

Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?

Anyway I guess "legendary" is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote from: samovar;584004There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.

Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?

"OS".  No "R" required.

Quote from: samovar;583987I think a key word is missing here: "commercial" or "for-profit" rulesets and product.

Gamers have been "producing" rulesets and product for ages without a hitch. You know this better than most people. Your Wilderlands campaign was non-commercial for years, back when you had one of the few sites to even use the word "Ghinor."

I appreciate you noticing what I have done previously with the Wilderlands. But that was just the tip of the iceberg of original material I had in my files.
 

Quote from: samovar;583987I'm not against working game designers, by the way. I just continue to fail to see the point of the clones.

Well for me, Swords & Wizardry was useful in the following ways.

1) It acted as a community hub for people who enjoyed playing original Dungeons & Dragons.

2) It show the limits of what I am allowed to use in commercial product at a acceptably low level of legal risk. Yes I am aware that in the US game mechanics can't be copyrighted but in the worse case you will have defend what you are doing in a court of law. With OGL derived material that risk is still not zero but it is several orders of magnitude less. Which is important as I, have a family, own a home, and have investments all of which I am not willing to risk for what is a hobby. If a person 22, have no assets, no kids, they more power to them if they want to take the risk.

3) It is useful to have a readily available commercial product that you can tell people to get (or for you to sell) when people ask about it when considering to buy your product. In my home areas, rural NW Pennsylvania, the only place  where you can be certain to buy out of print older edition products is the Warzone Matrix in Cleveland where they have several dozen copies of each book/product.

4) Particular to OD&D is the fact the state of the original rules requires that the referee make several decisions as to how to interpret the rules in order to begin a campaign. While Swords & Wizardry is retro-clone of OD&D, the author freely admits and explains what decisions he made about various vague elements of OD&D.

5) Because Swords & Wizardry is a commercial product with an established audience, that meant that I was able to successfully pitch the Majestic Wilderlands proposal to Robert Bledsaw  Jr, the owner of Judges Guild, and secure a license.

6) Related to 5, being able to publish a commercial product give me the drive to do the extra work to bring my notes up to a professional. Although from all the typos in MW I learned I still had more to learn. Blackmarsh went over better than that require and Scourge of the Demon Wolf is better still.

These are reason personal to me. Some share some of the reason along with reasons of their own why the retro-clones are useful.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;584005"OS".  No "R" required.

I guess so. Accept no substitute!

Quote from: Benoist;583997I find it really weird to consider there'd be two different hobbies where in one case, one plays the TSR games and enjoys the classic modules, and the other where you'd exclusively play retroclones and stuff produced by OSR publishers.

Purist communities exist for all roleplaying system not just older edition D&D. However from the years I been interacting with the folks at Knight and Knaves the situation is  more complicated than just saying they play with the originals only. It more like they have a very definite idea of what they consider to be X game.  It possible to write new material that appeals this type of audience but you have to be aware of where the lines are.

Quote from: samovar;584004There's a vast excluded middle there, so let's hope that's not the case.

Dating any "OSR hobby" to 2008 excludes Necromancer and the Necromancer Judges Guild renascence, Greytalk and just about all of Grodog's critical work and Philotomy's Musings, as well as (undoubtedly a coincidence) that long and fertile 2002-8 period when Gygax was interacting with the fans. Was that stuff not "OSR?" If not, where does it go?

I find this useful when questions like this come up.

Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc

The timeline begins with the release of OD&DITIES #1 in August of 2000 and proceeds from there. I think his criteria for inclusion was whether the product was new material for older editions of D&D.

Quote from: estar;5840063) It is useful to have a readily available commercial product that you can tell people to get (or for you to sell) when people ask about it when considering to buy your product. In my home areas, rural NW Pennsylvania, the only place  where you can be certain to buy out of print older edition products is the Warzone Matrix in Cleveland where they have several dozen copies of each book/product.

:jaw-dropping:

So these guys have a few dozen OD&D whitebox sets for sale?

Please tell me they sell online.

Quote from: estar;584010I find this useful when questions like this come up.

Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc

That goes back quite a ways! As a historian and associate of the Bledsaw family, where would you put developments like the old "Judges Guild Universal Role Playing adventure designed for use with all game systems?" Clearly "old," arguably "old school," but does it have any impact on the timeline?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;584012:jaw-dropping:

So these guys have a few dozen OD&D whitebox sets for sale?

Please tell me they sell online.

Gee sorry for the tease they have the Mentzers boxed set. The place is a cave of gaming material.

WHich reminds me of one more person reason for a retro-clones

7) Prices for OD&D Boxed Sets and supplement have skyrocketed in the past decade and it long longer viable for a causal player to pick up a copy for personal use. This situation is not currently an issues with AD&D 1st material but starting to be a problem with the Holmes and the B/X boxed sets.

Quote from: estar;584010I find this useful when questions like this come up.

Horde and Horde an OSR Timeline.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar9Wm_5gI_1TdGlyZHpwRHFoU2pEMng0NkhqTlJEYmc

The timeline begins with the release of OD&DITIES #1 in August of 2000 and proceeds from there. I think his criteria for inclusion was whether the product was new material for older editions of D&D.

Are you the keeper of that list?  I'd like to point out the WGH series (2-5) which spans from 2004 through 2006.

Quote from: samovar;584015That goes back quite a ways! As a historian and associate of the Bledsaw family, where would you put developments like the old "Judges Guild Universal Role Playing adventure designed for use with all game systems?" Clearly "old," arguably "old school," but does it have any impact on the timeline?

I guess those would be of the original run like the various Mayfair products. Although I would talk to the guy and try to get Lost Man's Trail on that list as that similar type of product to what Rob Kuntz wrote. When City-State of the  Sea King it should be thrown on the Horde and Horde list as well.

Basically anything here http://www.acaeum.com/ and here http://www.acaeum.com/jg/index.html would be considered part of the original set of products.