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Wizard vs Fighter Balance Bullshit

Started by jeff37923, June 17, 2012, 04:21:27 AM

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Exploderwizard

#4485
August 30, 2012, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;578411I know you're kidding, but single word commands for verbs that require objects are the very definition of equivocal.  :D

The victim need not comply, just spend a round thinking about how and the spell ends.;)
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Black Vulmea

#4486
August 30, 2012, 04:11:58 PM
Quote from: jibbajibba;578357I was wrong about Priests able to get fighter THACO with their chosen weapon.
:rotfl:

It just never ends, does it, jj?
"Of course five generic Kobolds in a plain room is going to be dull. Making it potentially not dull is kinda the GM\'s job." - #Ladybird, theRPGsite

Really Bad Eggs - swashbuckling roleplaying games blog  | Promise City - Boot Hill campaign blog

ACS

Sommerjon

#4487
August 30, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Quote from: jibbajibba;578357I was wrong about Priests able to get fighter THACO with their chosen weapon.

Thief can do that.  The 'swashbuckler' get Fighter THAC0 with his chosen weapon.  Perhaps you were confusing the two?
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

StormBringer

#4488
August 30, 2012, 06:53:13 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;578391Yeah, Priests are really shaped by their Spheres. That and GMs should really be paying attention to a Priest's alignment and actions. Just because they pray after rest to get their spells instead of finding each one the hard way like a Wizard doesn't mean they should just hand over a spell list and get it gratis.
Absolutely.  Withholding spells is the best way to enforce behaviour, but the DM can simulate the 'mysterious ways' of a deity by dicing spells for the day, taking the player's requests into account.  That would probably work better as a punishment for some minor transgression than SOP; it would get tedious and require a bunch more work for the DM.
If you read the above post, you owe me $20 for tutoring fees

\'Let them call me rebel, and welcome, I have no concern for it, but I should suffer the misery of devils, were I to make a whore of my soul.\'
- Thomas Paine
\'Everything doesn\'t need

Lord Mistborn

#4489
August 30, 2012, 08:30:27 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;578433Absolutely.  Withholding spells is the best way to enforce behaviour, but the DM can simulate the 'mysterious ways' of a deity by dicing spells for the day, taking the player's requests into account.  That would probably work better as a punishment for some minor transgression than SOP; it would get tedious and require a bunch more work for the DM.

Wow, I keep thinking you guys can't be worse DMs but you keep surprising me.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

RandallS

#4490
August 30, 2012, 08:49:51 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578448Wow, I keep thinking you guys can't be worse DMs but you keep surprising me.

Clerics who do not toe their deity's lines are supposed to have trouble getting the spells they want. At least in 1e, it's in the RAW. I realize that this can upset player plans, but that's the price for playing a cleric. You know, one of those things that limits the power of spell-casters in older versions of D&D. DMs who enforce such things are GOOD DMs -- at least in the styles of play I enjoy. Personally, I consider players who complain about such things poor players.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Lord Mistborn

#4491
August 30, 2012, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: RandallS;578457Clerics who do not toe their deity's lines are supposed to have trouble getting the spells they want. At least in 1e, it's in the RAW. I realize that this can upset player plans, but that's the price for playing a cleric. You know, one of those things that limits the power of spell-casters in older versions of D&D. DMs who enforce such things are GOOD DMs -- at least in the styles of play I enjoy. Personally, I consider players who complain about such things poor players.

If a cleric is violating his gods comands maybe.
Quote from: StormBringer;578433Absolutely.  Withholding spells is the best way to enforce behaviour, but the DM can simulate the 'mysterious ways' of a deity by dicing spells for the day, taking the player's requests into account.  That would probably work better as a punishment for some minor transgression than SOP; it would get tedious and require a bunch more work for the DM.
What Storm was saying is only giving clerics random spells, because fuck you caster that's why. Classes should not be balanced by encoraging the DM to fuck players over.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Opaopajr

#4492
August 30, 2012, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578448Wow, I keep thinking you guys can't be worse DMs but you keep surprising me.

Oh, you prefer lack of consequences and restrictions in your games. And yet you complain about balance. Fascinating.

Well, I like consequences and restrictions in my games. Helps me role play the setting like it's a living world. Different strokes and all that, I guess.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Opaopajr

#4493
August 30, 2012, 09:20:06 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;578433Withholding spells is the best way to enforce behaviour, but the DM can simulate the 'mysterious ways' of a deity by dicing spells for the day, taking the player's requests into account.  That would probably work better as a punishment for some minor transgression than SOP; it would get tedious and require a bunch more work for the DM.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;578460If a cleric is violating his gods comands maybe.

What Storm was saying is only giving clerics random spells, because fuck you caster that's why. Classes should not be balanced by encoraging the DM to fuck players over.

"Only" is a pretty extreme declaration, and reading is oh so fundamental. You're being disingenuous. Sadly this is unsurprising as well.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Lord Mistborn

#4494
August 30, 2012, 09:22:16 PM Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:25:37 PM by Lord Mistborn
Quote from: Opaopajr;578464Oh, you prefer lack of consequences and restrictions in your games. And yet you complain about balance. Fascinating.

Well, I like consequences and restrictions in my games. Helps me role play the setting like it's a living world. Different strokes and all that, I guess.
Consequences is the Paladin falling after a murder spree.

If the DM is using a thin excuse to rip spells off your character sheet he's just being a huge dick

guess which one Storm was advocating

Quote from: StormBringer;578433by dicing spells for the day.

This is not a defensible statement stop defending it
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Opaopajr

#4495
August 30, 2012, 09:39:24 PM
Please do catch up. Our conversation was talking about consequences of bad behavior and the occasional curve ball spell emulating Deity ineffability. There is a distinct difference between these three:
100% automatic granting priest spell requests,
100% random priest spells, and
GM taking player's requests and behavior into account while adding some ineffability.

You are creating a strawman and looking foolish in the process.
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Lord Mistborn

#4496
August 30, 2012, 09:49:44 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;578473Please do catch up. Our conversation was talking about consequences of bad behavior and the occasional curve ball spell emulating Deity ineffability. There is a distinct difference between these three:
100% automatic granting priest spell requests,
100% random priest spells, and
GM taking player's requests and behavior into account while adding some ineffability.

You are creating a strawman and looking foolish in the process.

no their are two possible positions
-The priest gets the spells from his class level and Wis score unless he is egregiously violating his god's commands, which is are things he should know about in advanced.
-The DM is a dick and withholds spells from him.

Disconnect from the grognard hivemind for a second and look at what Storm said.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#4497
August 30, 2012, 10:16:25 PM
Or another option.  One that's actually in the books (based on your posting history, I'm not surprised you know nothing of it):

Clerical spells, including the druidic, are bestowed by the gods, so that the
cleric need but pray for a few hours and the desired verbal and somatic
spell components will be placed properly in his or her mind. First, second,
third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through
meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the
lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can
be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some
intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or
her deity at such time, as the clerk must supplicate the deity for the
granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full
willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required.
The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric
some other spell (or none at all). Your Dungeon Master will handle this
considering a cleric's alignment and faithfulness to it and his or her deity.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Lord Mistborn

#4498
August 30, 2012, 10:21:01 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;578487Or another option.  One that's actually in the books (based on your posting history, I'm not surprised you know nothing of it):

Clerical spells, including the druidic, are bestowed by the gods, so that the
cleric need but pray for a few hours and the desired verbal and somatic
spell components will be placed properly in his or her mind. First, second,
third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through
meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the
lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can
be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some
intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or
her deity at such time, as the clerk must supplicate the deity for the
granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full
willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required.
The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric
some other spell (or none at all). Your Dungeon Master will handle this
considering a cleric's alignment and faithfulness to it and his or her deity.

2e DMing advice is to be an asshole apparently, somehow I'm not surprised.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#4499
August 30, 2012, 10:24:00 PM
Newsflash:  The DM not catering to your every whim, no matter how fucked up it is, doesn't make him or her a shit DM.  It makes you a spoiled brat with entitlement issues.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.
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