Quote from: Rum Cove;578205All spells at all times!  Scrolls, wands and infinite magical items for sale in the multiverse!

I think that is the graduation present for all apprentice Magic-Users.  

A lot of these posts remind me of a player that came to a new 2e campaign with an unarmored character that had a negative Armor Class (that would be  a ridiculously high AC for you later gamers) AT FIRST LEVEL.

He thought there was nothing wrong with having a Sacred Bundle from the Legends & Lore book.

Since I never got Sac's Dwarf Fighter w/ a bow or dual wield daggers, I'll just do it myself, assuming the stat is STR 18 and no +/- from Dex or other stat. I'll also not use magic equipment because that gets ridiculous arms races where Fighter & MUer are assumed to always get what they want, whenever they want it (*cough* 7th lvl Wizard w/ Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer *cough*).

(Side note: it's also funny as Wizard only gets 4/3/2/1 slots, thus only 7 Magic Missiles. At 7th it's 4 missiles/spell, at 1d4+1 each -- or 4d4+4, which averages to 14 dmg per spell, then 14 dmg x 7 spells = 98 dmg average for a 7th lvl Wizard to blow his only 4th lvl spell & ALL 7 of his 1st lvl spells, in just 7 rounds. He now only has 3 2nd and 2 3rd spells left for the rest of the adventure until he finds a safe spot (8 hrs of uninterrupted rest, y'know?).
 
Further Rary's spell requires a piece of string, ivory plaque of at least 100 gp value, and squid ink mixed with either black dragon's blood or giant slug digestive juice -- all of which disappear with casting. Which means he needs to visit the ivory merchant for an exquisite piece and then the local black dragon phlebotomist or the giant slugs "vomitorium" (<-- /snicker). Kind of a waste overall for just 3 extra Magic Missiles, nu?)

But let's look at this 2e 7th fighter with just regular daggers and a short bow -- and assumed proficiency (he did have 2 WP slots left from 1st lvl, and never spent his further 2 WP for being 7th lvl). This is with no addt'l weapon spec, style spec, ambidexterity, magic loot, etc.!

Short Bow + Flight Arrows (dmg 1d6)
THAC0 = 14 (for 7th lvl) +1atk (for STR 18--) = THAC0 13
#atk ranged: RoF 2/1 rd.  RNG 5/10/15 (x ten feet indoors or ten yards outdoors).

Daggers (dmg 1d4+2 (for STR 18)), two-weapon (grants an extra atk each round. no mention of 'melee atk only' in PHB, Comp: Fighter, or PO:S&P)
THAC0 = 14 (for 7th lvl) +1atk (for STR 18--) = THAC0 13
Two-Weapon THAC0 15/17 (-2/-4 atk)
#atk melee: 3/2 rds +1/rd (for two-weapon) = 5/2 rd.
# atk ranged: RoF 3/1 rd (goes up a step for 7th lvl; if Weap Spec would've been 4/1, PHB p.52) + 1/rd (for two-weapon) = RoF 4/1 rd. RNG 1/2/3.
STR damage carries through for thrown weapons (so dmg 1d4+2).

Priests cannot two-weapons wield or use bows. Priests can use slings, but that's 1d4+1 at best w/ sling bullet, retains similar RNG to Short Bow (5/10/20), but RoF is 1 atk/rd. (However, Priest THAC0 is 16 at 7th lvl. Therefore Sac's example Priest: Footman's Mace+2 makes that THAC0 14, base dmg 1d6+1 then +2 for magic weapon, thus 1d6+3. Still #atk = 1/rd.)

Fighter has consistent damage through-put with just with basic proficiency. =)

And now my nerd credentials are complete... I must sanctify this with an offering of cheetos and mountain dew. To post 5000 and beyond!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578006Fighter had 16 str and 16 con.  Cleric has 15 Con and 17 Wis.  These were just quick NPCs the Core rules spit out.  Same with weapon damage.  The only thing I manually put into the build was giving the cleric the same armor as the dwarf.

Noooo! Thwarted by the ridiculously large post count progression! Well, that changes STR 18 calculations by -1atk/-1dmg, leaving just +1dmg for STR 16.

Well now I'm confused and I sure as hell am not going to dig up my old Win 95 system to check out my D&D Core CD... I'll just have to *gasp* trust you.

Quote from: Opaopajr;578223Noooo! Thwarted by the ridiculously large post count progression! Well, that changes STR 18 calculations by -1atk/-1dmg, leaving just +1dmg for STR 16.

Well now I'm confused and I sure as hell am not going to dig up my old Win 95 system to check out my D&D Core CD... I'll just have to *gasp* trust you.

If it makes you feel better, when I generated a 2e dwarf fighter using the S&P add on options, his THAC0 with the axe became a 6, with damage 1d8+9.

S&P for you right there.

Ok, so I re did another level 7 dwarf fighter in case I misread a # somewhere.  This time he had 17 str and 15 Con.

AC: -1
HP: 60
Battle axe +2 (THAC0: 10, Dmg: 1d8+5, AT: 2/1)
Comp short bow +1 (THAC0: 13, AT: 2/1, Dmg: by arrow)

Same cleric (Wis 17, Con 15)
AC: -1
HP: 40
Footman's mace +2 (THAC0: 14, Dmg: 1d6+3, At: 1/1)

Actually, that's not in S&P either (which I'm looking at right now). Neither is Priest THAC0 progression being the same as Fighters. So all of that must be lost in some other AD&D 2e book I don't have right now.

FYI THAC0 progressions by Point/Level:
Priest = 2 pts /3 lvls
Rogue = 1 pt / 2 lvls
Warrior = 1 pt / 1 lvl
Wizard = 1 pt / 3 lvls

PO:S&P also rapidly increases cost, so Weapon Spec for priests is really costly. That and priests need 5 lvl minimum. Let me break the PO:S&P CP cost down.

Fighter Weapon Spec, Sword: Class - Weapon Spec 5 cp (Multi Weapon Spec 10 cp and only fighter has it); WPs - Sword Prof 2 cp,  Sword Spec 2 cp = 1st lvl and 9 CP (or 14 CP for access to more than one Specialization).

Cleric Weapon Spec, Sword: Class - Weapon Allowance 'God of Sword' 5 cp, Weapon Spec 15 cp; WPs - Sword Prof 3 +1 for outside normal class restriction, Sword Spec 6 cp = 5th lvl and 30 CP.

(FYI, WP CP = WP Slots at 2 CP:1 slot)

Doable, but takes too long if starting at 1st lvl, costs a lot of CP, and is limited to only one weapon. Fighters are just really good at kicking ass over the long haul. Also, if you don't use the optional WP/NWP or CP system, you can still give Fighters Weapon Specialization at one for 1st lvl and one for each lvl divisible by 3 (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.).

And I wanna try keep raising #atk progression beyond 13+. Considering it's 1/2 atk every 6 lvls that'd make 19th lvl = 5/2 melee atk/rounds, and so on.

That S&P build had things in it like getting CP for things like greed, and spending them on extra weapon expertise, d12 hit points, and shield and weapon style.  There were some other fidgety things there too, but it was totally min-maxed.

Quote from: Opaopajr;578186Has to be the former. By the way, PO:S&P terms "double specialized" Weapon Mastery. And no, it is in neither PHB core or Complete: Fighter. Further, you're (later on) right, Weapon Mastery does not give an increase to weapon attacks. However Weapon Spec moves you one step up on the #atk progression table.

The THAC0 answers the riddle. It's THAC0 14 at 7th lvl. To get 10 add +2 for the Axe+2. That's THAC0 12. THAC0 11 if Axe Weapon Spec (also +2 dmg), and 10 if STR of flat 18 (gives +1atk/+2dmg). Total comes to THAC0 10, 1d8+6, and 2/1 atks/rd.



See, you already knew it.



PHB pg. 199.
Command
Range: 30 yds (aka: just 3 if outside)
Component: V
Duration: 1 round (aka: one minute)
Casting Time: 1
AoE: 1 Creature
Save: None (unless INT 13+ or HD/lvl 6+, then save v. spell, adj. for WIS)

A minute is nothing. The thunderdome is big. Besides, that's trading your action for nulling one of theirs that round -- that's a push. That and the range, unless indoors, is far too dangerous. Oh, and you have to win initiative to avoid being hit anyway for spell disruption.

Let's just say I disagree here.

You mistake the spell Casting time 1 so you will generally win as a sword has weapons speed 5 so you are effectively getting a +4 on your int roll.

If you issue the command sleep they fall asleep. They are now asleep, not for 1 round they are asleep. If you say strip they take off all their armour.... etc .... so you aren't being very creative with the spell:)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;578226If it makes you feel better, when I generated a 2e dwarf fighter using the S&P add on options, his THAC0 with the axe became a 6, with damage 1d8+9.

S&P for you right there.

Ok, so I re did another level 7 dwarf fighter in case I misread a # somewhere.  This time he had 17 str and 15 Con.

AC: -1
HP: 60
Battle axe +2 (THAC0: 10, Dmg: 1d8+5, AT: 2/1)
Comp short bow +1 (THAC0: 13, AT: 2/1, Dmg: by arrow)

Same cleric (Wis 17, Con 15)
AC: -1
HP: 40
Footman's mace +2 (THAC0: 14, Dmg: 1d6+3, At: 1/1)

Again I agree with you 2e is by far the more balanced system. Again I would say use average HP as in this example the guy got lucky and rolled 53/70 which is statistically as likely as him getting 24/70 and ending up with 31 HP.
So use Figther HP = (5.5 x 7) + 7 = 46hp & Cleric = (4.5 x 7) + 7 = 38hp

Look at 1e is you want to see how much better a cleric can be than a fighter.

A 7th level Cleric in 1e has the same base stats as in 2e. The fighter though
has a base thaco of 14 and 3/2 attacks at Magic + Strength Bonus damage.

I definitely think that specialisation was a Good Thing to even up the disparity. Which is of course why they added it.

I will grab my books when I get home and grab the bit from the Complete Priest re combat options.

I was wrong about Priests able to get fighter THACO with their chosen weapon. You can do it with the build new classes optiona nd you can do it with Skills and powers but not in 2e Care. Not sure where I got that from but at some point we ruled against allowing it and so I have been explicitly been not allowing a rule that doesn't exist for 20 years

Something that is appropos to our discussion though is in the complete Priest page 122. It gives advice here on how to tone down the Cleric class from 1e D&D which it regards as too powerful. It recommends narrowing the spell spheres they have access as one method of doing this.

Also on the same page if a Priest gives up being a priest if they had 'good' combat abilites (ie use any armour and a fair range of weapons) then they can become a fighter of 1 level lower and loose their clerical powers without having to start at again. The impication of course ebeing that a cleric is as good a fighter as a fighter one level lower

the CPH also lets you swap round priestly powers so if you like you could swap turn undead for shapechange, charm or cause fear etc .

I really liek the CHP I think 2e Priests are great but there is a big onus on the DM owing the processes and balancing them becuase they are a min maxers dream class (a fact whcih gets worse in 3e by all accounts)

Quote from: jibbajibba;578305You mistake the spell Casting time 1 so you will generally win as a sword has weapons speed 5 so you are effectively getting a +4 on your int roll.

If you issue the command sleep they fall asleep. They are now asleep, not for 1 round they are asleep. If you say strip they take off all their armour.... etc .... so you aren't being very creative with the spell:)

Wrong.

PHB p. 199
Command

This spell enables the priest to command another creature with a single word. The command must be uttered in a language understood by the creature. The subject will obey to the best of his/its ability only as long as the command is absolutely clear and unequivocal; hence, a command of "Suicide!" is ignored. A command to "Die!" causes the creature to fall in a faint or cataleptic state for one round, but thereafter the creature revives and is alive and well. Typical commands are back, halt, flee, run, stop, fall, go, leave, surrender, sleep, rest, etc. No command affects a creature for more than one round; undead are not affected at all. Creatures with Intelligence of 13 (high) or more, or those with 6 or more Hit Dice (or experience levels) are entitled to a saving throw vs. spell, adjusted for Wisdom. (Creatures with 13 or higher Intelligence and 6 Hit Dice/levels get only one saving throw!)

Further, Casting Time 1 is nice, but Daggers go at Speed 2. And, more importantly, that's only pertinent if the GM is using the optional Individual Initiative+Individual Modifier method of determining initiative.

But Command is a nice spell otherwise; just not Thunderdome worthy.

Yeah, Priests are really shaped by their Spheres. That and GMs should really be paying attention to a Priest's alignment and actions. Just because they pray after rest to get their spells instead of finding each one the hard way like a Wizard doesn't mean they should just hand over a spell list and get it gratis.

In fact, due to GMs granting Priest spells on a day by day basis, it's one of the stronger areas where hooks can be imbedded. Besides denying bad Priests some (or if really bad, all!) spells that day for breaking their ethos, you can instead throw them a curve ball spell and let them figure out how best to use it. Gods are oft portrayed as fickle or inscrutable, so having one that perpetually grants your every spell desired isn't very God-like. That's more like a fairy godmother, or God serves you instead of vice-versa.

(And I still don't see that info in my PO:S&P about Priest alternate THAC0. It's not in the Classes section. Might be in CH:P, or maybe a subsequent PO:S&P printing I've never seen. Not gonna go digging for more books, however. But perhaps it exists somewhere?)

Quote from: Opaopajr;578384But Command is a nice spell otherwise; just not Thunderdome worthy.

Command is awesome!

Here are some favorites: abide, assuage, burgeon,dissemble, gainsay, hearken, prognosticate, transmogrify.

Nothing better than a temporary mental stun why the victim figures out how to comply.

I know you're kidding, but single word commands for verbs that require objects are the very definition of equivocal.  

Quote from: Exploderwizard;578409Command is awesome!

Here are some favorites: abide, assuage, burgeon,dissemble, gainsay, hearken, prognosticate, transmogrify.

Nothing better than a temporary mental stun why the victim figures out how to comply.

OK that made me laugh. I already can envision a god of performing arts with a circle of priests using this as an exercise in interpretive dance and method acting. And it's all fun and games until someone says something problematic, like 'defenestrate' or 'excrete'. Then it's even more fun!