Quote from: Declan MacManus;575749These traits are widely regarded as being among the worst that gamers can have.

These come WAY, WAY after lack of proper hygiene at every table I've played at.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;575838So they play 3E for the same kind of game they could have playing 2E, presumably just for the love of bureaucratic number crunching.

Sounds like a bunch of assholes to me.

Not necessarily. For instance, I can see how a player might feel there is more immersive value in taking actual levels in a thaumaturgist prestige class rather than a kit, or having a feat to simulate a third arm graft instead of just a magic item (that wouldn't be my personal preference to be clear, but I can see how these elements can hold some appeal on the level of simulation of the characters progression and attachment to the game world rather than "holy game balance" and "nerdgasm" mathematical concerns).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;575842These come WAY, WAY after lack of proper hygiene at every table I've played at.

Is that something you really see often? Where do you play at, primarily?

I'm asking in good faith here.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;575842These come WAY, WAY after lack of proper hygiene at every table I've played at.

I'm inclined to believe that the type who locks themselves in a room with a stack of books and empty bottles of Zoloft are the same who forget to shower for days at a time.

Quote from: Benoist;575843Not necessarily. For instance, I can see how a player might feel there is more immersive value in taking actual levels in a thaumaturgist prestige class rather than a kit, or having a feat to simulate a third arm graft instead of just a magic item (that wouldn't be my personal preference to be clear, but I can see how these elements can hold some appeal on the level of simulation of the characters progression and attachment to the game world rather than "holy game balance" and "nerdgasm" mathematical concerns).

I see it as very little actual benefit for a lot of extra work.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;575847I see it as very little actual benefit for a lot of extra work.

OK. I do too. But what if that extra little benefit meant the difference between a character you like and one you are really invested in, as a player? Wouldn't there be value in that then, from an immersive standpoint?

Using Declan's logic here:

*The rpgsite is one of the only sites that allow users to call  other users cunts with no repercussion.  

*Being able to call people cunts willy nilly is an asshole behavior, and thus attracts assholes as members

*If you are a member of therpgsite and post there more than anywhere else, you are an asshole.



That's literally the exact argument Declan is making about 3e.  Congrats Declan, you are using the same logic as people on SA.

QuoteThat's literally the exact argument Declan is making about 3e. Congrats Declan, you are using the same logic as people on SA.

Don't forget TBP they are famous for it. Let's just say I disagree with the whole premise because I ran into my fair share of assholes in every version of Dnd and other games and the difference in percentages wasn't appreciable enough to care.

Quote from: Marleycat;575853Don't forget TBP they are famous for it. .

No, the TBP version would be:

*TBP allows you to make passive aggressive attacks against other people if you're a transgender minority atheist.

*So TBP attracts transgender minority atheists

*If you post at TBP, you must be a transgender minority atheist.

Quote from: Marleycat;575853Don't forget TBP they are famous for it.

Eh I'm still waiting for my natty black fascist uniform. Pundit.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;575849That's literally the exact argument Declan is making about 3e.  Congrats Declan, you are using the same logic as people on SA.

Exactly this.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;575924Exactly this.

Are you sure Declan isn't just being ironic?

Quote from: Benoist;575845Is that something you really see often? Where do you play at, primarily?

I'm asking in good faith here.

Not something I see often - but I have seen it.  People that don't practice good hygiene are not welcome at my house.  

I've also been to GenCon once.  It is possible that some allowance should be made for the possible long waking hours and number of people sharing a single room (and therefore, shower), but I'm not inclined to make it.  

There are plenty of behaviors that aren't acceptable in any type of gaming environment, and the first are always the same ones as at work.  Keep yourself clean; no unwanted touching or leering; etc.  

Then you start on the ones that are really important to gaming.  The first and cardinal rule for players: Make a character that has a reason for wanting to work with the other members of the party.  

I've had a player that wanted to go off and do solo-shit.  I let him leave the party and we'd give him 5 minutes to describe his long journey to a far away land while spending 55 minutes doing the actual adventure...  It wouldn't matter if he had none of the problems that Declan thinks are a problem.  

That's not to say you can't have intra-party conflict.  But you have to be willing to work together.  

The second rule: It's a game - try to have fun and try to make sure everyone else is having fun with you.

Again, it doesn't matter what kind of game you're playing.  If you're being careful to observe rule #2, you can be as Pun-Pun as you want.  It's only a problem if people aren't having fun.  So if Declan is at your table, watch your Pun-Pun making self.  If that's the only way for you to have fun and it ruins his fun, the two shouldn't be playing together.  But for most people, there's a middle ground.  

This also covers what 'Rating' a game should have.  Some gamers aren't comfortable with the death of a child, some think that if evil doesn't do anything WICKED, then what's the point.  

There are plenty of ways to be an asshole that Declan didn't mention.  As far as those things go, they're not NECESSARILY a problem, but they can be.  

I think 3.x has some major flaws, but for me, it's still the best game around.  But I honestly don't care if Declan thinks I'm an asshole either in addition to or because of that.  I like to believe that it's enough we're all enjoying our shared hobby.

Quote from: jeff37923;575926Are you sure Declan isn't just being ironic?

Are you positing that Declan has carried this exact argument for 128 pages of this thread, and doesn't actually mean it the way he has been stating it for those 128 pages? You find that plausible?

If that is the case, which I find highly unlikely, then I suppose his problem is that he is absolutely shit at communication and/or is actively trolling since he isn't correcting anyone's assumptions of his belief.

Yeah see, I think the good hygiene thing is not just a given for RPG game sessions, but for normal social interactions period. If you don't have a good personal hygiene, well, something's wrong with you in terms of sociability and self-respect, period.

I tend to game with people I know prior to the game sessions, whether they are gamers or not before hand, i.e I will mostly game at home with people I've myself invited to play. So I don't see a lack of personal hygiene at my game tables in general.

Now the two basic principles that follow in your post, I don't object to them either. I like the first one and that is something I stress as well in the pre-game session. The second one is also something that I point out explicitly - one wouldn't have to in an ideal world, but it helps to keep the perspective that this is a game and the point is to have fun together. Helps make the game less intimidating for newbies, too.