There's a couple of posts on the Labyrinth Lord forum about this and I thought I'd cross post to see what the consensus among the B/X crowd here is.  As a DM, I use Ability Checks (roll under stat on a d20) a lot, I'm wondering what the general outlook on this is.  Black Wyvern on the LL boards stated that he thinks they place an unfortunate emphasis on rolled scores rather than player skill.  I said:

Quote from: AndrewSFTSNBasically, I can see both sides of the argument. I understand that at its core, old school play is about challenging the player rather than just relying on a set of numbers. However, I don't think that reasoning such as "I'm not going out there to pacify that unruly crowd, I've only got CHA 6" necessarily breaks with that principle-being aware of your strengths and weaknesses is surely part of the challenge to the player. Having this potentially being backed up by the relevant ability check if the DM decides to call for it- doesn't that just offer an additional confirmation that it was or was not sensible to attempt that task, and maybe someone with higher CHA (who was cowardly and didn't want to risk it) could have stepped forward ?

However, the simplicity of doing away with them appeals to me, and I don't want to ingrain the idea that system checks are the core of the older games for my players (who are mostly new to D&D).  They do roleplay, and only roll Ability Checks when I call for them, but I think I'm guilty of almost using them as the default task resolution mechanic.  What do you think the pros and cons are?

Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;570269However, the simplicity of doing away with them appeals to me, and I don't want to ingrain the idea that system checks are the core of the older games for my players (who are mostly new to D&D).  They do roleplay, and only roll Ability Checks when I call for them, but I think I'm guilty of almost using them as the default task resolution mechanic.  What do you think the pros and cons are?

The way I handle "skill/ability checks. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds both reasonable for the character and fairly likely to work, it works. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds either unreasonable for his character or simply unlikely to work, it fails. Otherwise roll the skill/ability check and let it decide. Note: If a player refuses to describe what their character is actually doing and just want to make a check to determine success, the character automatically fails.

I try to avoid telling characters "No"...I can't remember where I read the "Say yes, OR roll for it" rule of thumb but I've been applying that.  I guess I could just put it to a d6 roll.

I use 'em all the time, but roleplay trumps ability checks.  Usually I use the ability checks for little stuff, or when, despite the roleplay, it needs to come down to a randomization.

Quote from: RandallS;570270The way I handle "skill/ability checks. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds both reasonable for the character and fairly likely to work, it works. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds either unreasonable for his character or simply unlikely to work, it fails. Otherwise roll the skill/ability check and let it decide. Note: If a player refuses to describe what their character is actually doing and just want to make a check to determine success, the character automatically fails.

That's fair to me, I think.

I've never liked the argument of "rolling removes player skill" because, well, I want to play players who can often do things I cannot.

The "player skill" comes in when it occurs to me to look at the options on my character sheet and decide to use a given stat/what have you in order to succeed.

As long as you have the player describe what they are doing before they roll then there isn't a problem. The roll is just to see how well the solution is implemented. Based on their description it could be that only a nat 1 (if you are rolling high) for failure will actually cause a failure.

Quote from: RandallS;570270The way I handle "skill/ability checks. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds both reasonable for the character and fairly likely to work, it works. If what the player describes his character is doing sounds either unreasonable for his character or simply unlikely to work, it fails. Otherwise roll the skill/ability check and let it decide. Note: If a player refuses to describe what their character is actually doing and just want to make a check to determine success, the character automatically fails.

Yeah, I pretty much do this. I base it on common sense - most of the time if somebody describes their character doing something and it sounds reasonable I just say yes. Otherwise I have them roll the dice - hence, I guess, say yes or roll the dice.

I'd say ability score checks happen about 2 or 3 times a session on average in my group, in a 3 hour session. So not incredibly often, I suppose.

Quote from: noisms;570293I'd say ability score checks happen about 2 or 3 times a session on average in my group, in a 3 hour session. So not incredibly often, I suppose.

Recently, mine's got to be more like 12-15 times in a 4 hour session...

Examples off the top of my head (feel free to mock)

STR: To stop someone running past you in a corridor by body checking them.
DEX: To avoid slipping over on a blood-slick floor in the middle of a fight.
CON: To avoid passing out from pain.
INT:  To see if your character recognises a name.
WIS: To sense if the mood in a crowded tavern is feeling a bit "off".
CHA: To see if your stirring speech has any bonus on reaction/hiring roll.

Overgamey?  Probably...

Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;570297Recently, mine's got to be more like 12-15 times in a 4 hour session...

Examples off the top of my head (feel free to mock)

STR: To stop someone running past you in a corridor by body checking them.
DEX: To avoid slipping over on a blood-slick floor in the middle of a fight.
CON: To avoid passing out from pain.
INT:  To see if your character recognises a name.
WIS: To sense if the mood in a crowded tavern is feeling a bit "off".
CHA: To see if your stirring speech has any bonus on reaction/hiring roll.

Overgamey?  Probably...

Maybe. I would say the STR one is justified. What I usually do when there is some sort of test of strength (one party trying to force a door open while the other holds it shut seems to come up a lot) I just have both parties roll d20 and add their STR bonus, hightest wins.

The DEX one is something I haven't done, but actually sounds like a fun idea.

Not sure how the CON one came up - what was the situation?

The INT and WIS ones I would probably just "say yes". PCs can sense the mood without a roll. If they ask me if they recognise a name I just use a judgment call.

For the CHA one, I would probably have the player do the speech. If he did a decent or funny job of it I'd just give the bonus.

Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;570297Recently, mine's got to be more like 12-15 times in a 4 hour session...

Examples off the top of my head (feel free to mock)

STR: To stop someone running past you in a corridor by body checking them.
DEX: To avoid slipping over on a blood-slick floor in the middle of a fight.
CON: To avoid passing out from pain.
INT:  To see if your character recognises a name.
WIS: To sense if the mood in a crowded tavern is feeling a bit "off".
CHA: To see if your stirring speech has any bonus on reaction/hiring roll.

Overgamey?  Probably...

I think it's fine, but I'm also in the camp that the "game" part is as much a part of the fun as the "roleplaying" part of "roleplaying game".

STR, DEX, CON (I assume this was a torture type situation?) - completely justified.

INT - I do stuff like this at times. Akin to the Savage Worlds Common Knowledge checks.

WIS - Yeah, or to spot if a merchant is outright lying to you, etc.

CHA - Justified. Not everyone I game with is a great speech maker, especially on the fly, so if they put a 16, 17 or 18 into Charisma, more power to them. Just like I would have a problem letting a Charisma 6 guy get by on his natural charisma or speaking ability and treating Charisma as a complete dump stat.

CON check was for the recipient of some impromptu wound-binding (a rule I don't normally use) and I told them they could maybe recover a few HP at the risk of possibly blacking out for the forseeable future.  Thanks for opinions everyone, will weigh in more when I have left work.

Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;570297Recently, mine's got to be more like 12-15 times in a 4 hour session...

Examples off the top of my head (feel free to mock)

STR: To stop someone running past you in a corridor by body checking them.
DEX: To avoid slipping over on a blood-slick floor in the middle of a fight.
CON: To avoid passing out from pain.
INT:  To see if your character recognises a name.
WIS: To sense if the mood in a crowded tavern is feeling a bit "off".
CHA: To see if your stirring speech has any bonus on reaction/hiring roll.

Overgamey?  Probably...

Overgame only occurs if it breaks your Players immersion and they do not enjoy it.

As for checks? I usually do them as ability score plus level and you try to roll under.

Quote from: AndrewSFTSN;570297Recently, mine's got to be more like 12-15 times in a 4 hour session...

Examples off the top of my head (feel free to mock)

STR: To stop someone running past you in a corridor by body checking them.
DEX: To avoid slipping over on a blood-slick floor in the middle of a fight.
CON: To avoid passing out from pain.
INT:  To see if your character recognises a name.
WIS: To sense if the mood in a crowded tavern is feeling a bit "off".
CHA: To see if your stirring speech has any bonus on reaction/hiring roll.

Overgamey?  Probably...

Looks fair to me.

There are times when ability checks make sense. But there are a lot of times when raw genetic talent (an ability stat) is not going to cut it. You are going to need to rely on skill. Which is why I prefer a set of rules with a complete skill system. Because you can learn to be greater than your genetic limitations.

I love ability checks! But I try to avoid the "you must be this tall to ride" effect where I can. Even an INT 6 character will have a good idea every now and then, so rolling every time is unnecessary.

Ability checks in my view should trigger mainly during two tasks. One where real risk is involved, such as time pressure. And the other when a desire to generate a randomized degree of success above and beyond a regular pass/fail check.

The former can actually have you fail; player has real stakes on the line and knows it. The latter is more GM discretion but generally a check on how well a player's role-played good idea succeeded. I like bits of randomness to help me create consequences in the world, so that latter technique helps me a lot.