Okay, my big "I've thought about it and this is what I think" thing on games:
Note: You can append IMO and "for me" to every sentence here. I'm not gonna do it cause I don't like writing that way, it sounds wishy washy and it goes against everything I've ever been taught about writing. It should be obvious that this is my opinion.

The best analogy for a role playing game is a band. In a band you have a group of people with varying roles who work together to achieve something.

Players who show up to a game need to either be willing to accept and care about a GM created goal, latch on to another players goal, or create their own goal. Gaming is an active form of entertainment, like being in a band. If you are not there willing to care about the music you are playing then it is your responsibility to write better music. If you can't then it is perhaps time to talk to your band mates and perhaps leave the band.

Now, by "goal" here I'm speaking of a mainly in game concept, perhaps this is at odds with the threads focus. If I am at odds with the focus, it is because there are two different ways to interpret player goals and I have picked the wrong one. A player goal can be what the player wants for his character in the game world, this may well be different from what the character's goal. However, a player goal could also describe a purely out of game goal, answering the question: "Why do you game?" The answer there could be any number of things. I am talking about the in game players' goals, not the out of game goals (though I have perhaps confused the two in previous posts).

Anyway, players need to have an in game goal and be willing to pursue it. This allows the GM to "riff" off the players doings and lets him avoid having to railroad them or drag them along (it has never ceased to astound me how some people who roleplay seem perfectly content with having their characters do absolutely nothing). Now, I like goals to be player generated, because I believe it makes for a more dynamic, interesting time as a GM. However, this doesn't always work, so a GM created goal is ok too. However, if players fail to take that goal to heart the game will, in my experience, usually fail.

So what I don't like about players without goals, or more accurately players unwilling to try and pursue something in game, is that they do not provide energy and enthusiasm to the game like players who want and try to pursue something. It is like the bass player deciding he doesn't really want to try and play, but he'd still like to stand there and listen to the music. The music isn't going to sound right if the bass player is phoning it in and its gonna frustrate all the other members of the band.

Your'e like a little parrot or something.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e like a little parrot or something.

Well, my reason for posting that was to try to think about and clearly express my position in one post because I was not being very clear before. So... yeah.

Quote from: SpikeSee it this way, Seth. That player just handed me a goal that not only might overshadow everyone else, it might actually disagree with the cosmology of the setting... and it comes with a built in result that I am suddenly expected to make possible. Maybe not easy, but possible.  

By itself? Minor irritation, and one I would be just as happy to ignore. But you couple it with a second conceit, that the player should map out his happy ending.  First of all, I like my games a bit like life. Organic, unpredictable, and they don't necessarily 'end' when the curtain goes down. It ends when you die (cue theological sidebar discussion... ).  You apparently like your games like  a good book, in fact, you use book like terms when discussing them. Thats fine and dandy... for you.  

Well, good for you. I like games that go somewhere and end, cause IMX games tend to fall apart quite often, but it's easier if there is an end point in sight.

QuoteSince I like stupid analogies: Christmas? Is it more fun if you get everything on your list, or when people surprise you with cool gifts that you didn't expect?  Me, I'm partial to the second.  

The second would be great, but it has never happened to me. I know what I want. If I totally don't expect something, odds are I don't want it. I've never gotten something completely unexpected. Everytime I've had someone get me something that was not money or something I asked for it has been disappointing. Or pointless. So, while the idea of the great big out of nowhere surprise on Christmas is a pleasant fiction for me, it doesn't happen. And this is coming from a guy who got an honest to god pony when he was a kid. I didn't ask for it, and I didn't want it and it wasn't that great.

QuoteNow, I got no problems with people that give out a gift list with carefully annotated points on it: Seth, get me a malibu barbie, preferably one with pink hair.  Not the ballerina barbie, or I'll shank you.

But mostly those people don't go around using terms like 'dead eyed non-holiday people who should do something better with their time' which is a pretty loaded judgement to make about someone who does things differently, eh?

Well, I've said pretty mean things about people who refuse to give money and refuse a list. And I generally don't like people who say "get me anything" if I ask them what they want... or expect a gift they havn't asked for. So, yeah, I am just that judgemental

QuoteAs for the idiot who askes for the gods to crush him like a bug? Simple, first session of the game, first time he opens his mouth about anything deific, he catches a lightning bolt.   People who roleplay to 'lose' are dead eyed wastes of time who should be playing volleyball. Probably badly. :rolleyes:

Okay, if you as a GM did this I would think you were a jerk. Sometimes I like my characters to fail. I generally find failure far more dramatic and interesting than success. I don't think you should punish someone just because he'd like to see his character fail.

I think you missed it, Seth. He wants failure, I gave it to him fast.  Seeking failure is easy.

If he wants the CHANCE to fail... that's different. If someone wants a tough challenge and the possiblity of failure, I'm happy to oblige. Someone who sets out to fail is wasting MY time.

Quote from: SpikeI think you missed it, Seth. He wants failure, I gave it to him fast.  Seeking failure is easy.

If he wants the CHANCE to fail... that's different. If someone wants a tough challenge and the possiblity of failure, I'm happy to oblige. Someone who sets out to fail is wasting MY time.

You give him unsatisfying, passive agressive bullshit failure.

I see nothing wrong about a player seeking failure. He may not agree with his character and want to use him as an example. See the play "Brand" by Henrik Ipsen as a really good example of putting a lot into a character and setting them up for failure.