Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;532140I don't think Pundit is a shill either, but I do think that he's being used and manipulated by WoTC in an underhanded way to help establish "legitimacy" to the new edition. Yes...I said it, Pundit. Sorry.

The fact that they're using me is in and of itself, however, a sign that they've changed.  Let's pretend for a moment that I wasn't exchanging small mountains of emails with mike Mearls on a near-daily basis, and having a direct influence over what's being written.  Let's assume its all a scam, I'm actually writing to famed Mearls-impersonator Pepito Suarez, and everything I write gets thrown into the trash folder the second it arrives.  The whole thing is just an illusion requiring a tremendous amount of time and effort (and Suarez's rather large paycheck) just to fool little old me.

Even there, even in that worst-case scenario for me personally, it would STILL mean a massive sea change in WoTC.
Why? Because they've gone from wanting to make a "gamist" rpg that appeals to WoW fans and would be likely to consider Ron Edwards as one of its intellectual influences in design, to wanting to distance themselves from that to the point that they hire someone like me, to show people how they AREN'T LIKE THAT ANYMORE.  

Not just me, but Rob, Zak, and James too. Even if they weren't intending to listen to a word we said after paying us all big bucks, it would still mean they were desperately trying to change their overall attitude and public image.  And trust me, they are listening to us; to me at least, but I would assume to all the others I named too.
 
RPGPundit

I believe that anyone who is a long term role player will at least look at 5th Edition - moreso because long term players are well enough versed in the industry to recognize that Monte Cook and others from more successful eras of the game are back, and they know what people are playing now (Pathfinder, OSR, etc). MC for example knows his Pathfinder - he's come to the last few PaizoCons for example.

Likewise, long termers can afford at least a PHB. So lots of PHBs will sell, but that will not mean all that much, because many of us don't stop playing games we like. I think what is required is convincing DMs to want to run it in their groups.

What I predict is that neither game will particularly grow the number of people playing tabletop RPGs. The last few 'cons where Ive heard the question asked to industry panels (and included some folks involved with both camps), none had a real answer to the question that hordes of young kids no longer seem that interested. 4E at least was a lesson on how to fail at trying to convert the MMO generation.

Quote from: Lynn;532745I believe that anyone who is a long term role player will at least look at 5th Edition - moreso because long term players are well enough versed in the industry to recognize that Monte Cook and others from more successful eras of the game are back, and they know what people are playing now (Pathfinder, OSR, etc). MC for example knows his Pathfinder - he's come to the last few PaizoCons for example.

Likewise, long termers can afford at least a PHB. So lots of PHBs will sell, but that will not mean all that much, because many of us don't stop playing games we like. I think what is required is convincing DMs to want to run it in their groups.

What I predict is that neither game will particularly grow the number of people playing tabletop RPGs. The last few 'cons where Ive heard the question asked to industry panels (and included some folks involved with both camps), none had a real answer to the question that hordes of young kids no longer seem that interested. 4E at least was a lesson on how to fail at trying to convert the MMO generation.

I am a long term role-player. since 1978. And I have zero interest in 5E. The launch of 4E burned all the bridges that connected me to WotC. If anyone likes 5E, more power to them. But I'll be passing.

The PR damage WotC wrought during 4e's lead-up and release cannot be overstated.

Quote from: Endless Flight;532843The PR damage WotC wrought during 4e's lead-up and release cannot be underestimated.

But the power of the Ring could not be undone.

Quote from: Endless Flight;532843The PR damage WotC wrought during 4e's lead-up and release cannot be overstated.

Yes, its an uphill battle to try to undo that.  But I do think that it can be undone, if they're smart about it.

RPGPundit

If 5e is a decent game (which I expect it will be, for reasons mentioned previously), past sins will be largely forgiven/forgotten.

If Wizards are really smart, they'll re-adopt the OGL.

I don't see them doing the second but I wouldn't be shocked if you're right about the first. Maybe a more realistic hope is that they adopt something in the middle ground between GSL and OGL.

You know, this notion of people hating (or loving) WotC is way overblown. It's an internet forum thing.

Most people who play D&D, in any iteration, don't hang out on internet forums arguing about this company, or that PR campaign, or even this edition versus that edition. They just play. Of the 10 people I know who played D&D (or Pathfinder) in the last year, only myself and one other have spent even a minute on an online RPG forum. The rest don't give a fuck about WotC, or RPGNet, or ENWorld (if they're even aware they exist).

5E will fail or succeed on its merit as a game. Pathfinder will fail or succeed on the merit of Paizo's adventure lines. All the internet speculation is just so much jabbering by forum junkies.

Quote from: Haffrung;5330475E will fail or succeed on its merit as a game. Pathfinder will fail or succeed on the merit of Paizo's adventure lines. All the internet speculation is just so much jabbering by forum junkies.

Saddle up Haffrung

I am pretty confident in Paizo's ability to run their business. At one point, they had the rug pulled out from under their feet when they got the Dragon and Dungeon magazine licenses pulled - they turned around and created a commercially viable competitor to D&D, then used that to help launch other book publishing ventures.

D&D is not only the game but also the related franchises - books, licenseable IP and more, along with brand power and a much larger company behind them.

If this were two companies making commercial software or powertools or some other type of non-entertainment product, I would also discount armchair quarterbacking and people with deep resentments.

Pathfinder has often developed their game by following 4e's lead, but masking 4e ideas under a haze of awful writing so that the game still "feels" like D&D3. Presumably D&D Next will give them a new box of toys to break and then duct-tape back together.

I'm pessimistic about the idea that WotC can reclaim most of the fanbase who are disgruntled about 4e. Once people have gotten into their heads that they've been betraaayed! it's hard to come back from that no matter what you do for them.

Quote from: Dodger;533010If Wizards are really smart, they'll re-adopt the OGL.

If 5e is OGL (I hope so), you can believe that I'll be contacting Jeff Dee, Erol Otus, and Larry Elmore for artwork for adventure modules.  No fucking minis required!  

Quote from: Acta Est Fabula;533600If 5e is OGL (I hope so), you can believe that I'll be contacting Jeff Dee, Erol Otus, and Larry Elmore for artwork for adventure modules.  No fucking minis required!  

Hell yeah!! Burn the minis!

I love the smell of burning plastic in the morning. Smells like . . . victory!

I bailed on WoTC over 4E. I wasn't a 3E edition warrior, I bought 4E and played it for a year and it left me cold. I took up Pathfinder. Last year, tired of the complexities of Pathfinder/3.5 and wanting to return to my gaming roots, I bought into Basic Fantasy and I and my players have been happy since. It has been some years since I bought a WoTC product.

I cut my teeth on Basic D&D and AD&D and the bottom line is that D&D has a place in who I am.

[cringeworthy analogy]Forgive the following, apalling analogy, I love D&D and when 4E let me down it was like a girlfriend who had become so fucked up that the relationship couldn't continue, but inside I knew I'd always love her (I warned you that the analogy was going to be a stinker). Now she's showing promising signs of having got her shit together and trying to clean up her act. I'm cautious about it, but what I'm seeing so far is encouraging. If she's making this effort I'm ready to give her another chance because I know that if it works out I'll be happy. I'm hoping that 5E will bring D&D back to me and, for now, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.[/cringeworthy analogy]

Quote from: Orpheo;533634I bailed on WoTC over 4E. I wasn't a 3E edition warrior, I bought 4E and played it for a year and it left me cold. I took up Pathfinder. Last year, tired of the complexities of Pathfinder/3.5 and wanting to return to my gaming roots, I bought into Basic Fantasy and I and my players have been happy since. It has been some years since I bought a WoTC product.

I cut my teeth on Basic D&D and AD&D and the bottom line is that D&D has a place in who I am.

[cringeworthy analogy]Forgive the following, apalling analogy, I love D&D and when 4E let me down it was like a girlfriend who had become so fucked up that the relationship couldn't continue, but inside I knew I'd always love her (I warned you that the analogy was going to be a stinker). Now she's showing promising signs of having got her shit together and trying to clean up her act. I'm cautious about it, but what I'm seeing so far is encouraging. If she's making this effort I'm ready to give her another chance because I know that if it works out I'll be happy. I'm hoping that 5E will bring D&D back to me and, for now, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.[/cringeworthy analogy]

Your experience mirrors mine and my reaction to 5e is pretty much the same, cringe worthy analogies aside.

Though I do play Pathfinder or Fantasy Craft as time allows but I yearn for simpler games so more and more OSRIC stuff or related is catching my interest.