Quote from: Caesar Slaad;532430As for D20 CoC, it does have very good Mythos and keeper advice sections, and I do strongly prefer the ease of use and utility of the d20 skill system over BRP's. That said, I think BRP has a better initial character generation system; the whole offensive/defensive option thing and everyone getting the same number of skills is way too coarse a tool to craft characters, I think.

I loved D20 CoC and ran several games with it.  However, in the long run I have to agree that the mechanical side of the game has not stood the test of time as well as BRP CoC does.

Which is why I think its foolish, the fandoms of the other versions like "Trail of" etc; particularly when motivated by people who dislike BRP CoC.  It IS call of cthulhu, it is the one that will endure, whether you like it or not.

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Quote from: Caesar Slaad;532429You don't add anything from your ability if you aren't spending points from your pool. Once you have expended points from your pool for the session, you are no better than the untrained schlub in the group. This there, is the mechanic that I hate.

I see what you mean. Reading it again, I'm not entirely sure what I think of it, either. I'm inclined to trust that it works until gameplay proves otherwise.

You can refresh action pools after 24 hours of game time, and can also refresh up to 3 pools of your choice once per session if you can find a place to rest, so it isn't so simple as 'once you're out you're out'. You also only need to roll in the highest stress situations, so being out of points doesn't mean 'you can't succeed at anything' either. You will be less likely to succeed at the end of a session or 24 hour period than at the beginning, but I assume this is how the game models fatigue.

The skill ratings seem designed to allow a higher skilled person to shine at something more often, rather than to achieve a higher degree of success. There's also an option to avoid this:

Quote from: ToC page 56We've never had this issue reported as a problem except in theory. The following rule is in keeping with the basic GUMSHOE premise, but might not suit everyone. Where it is essential to overcome a General obstacle, allow success whatever the result, but give a negative consequence other than failure for the role. For example, the PC climbs the fence, but receives an injury.

Anyway, thanks for raising the issue - I'll definitely look more closely at it when we actually get down to playing the game.

I thinking owning both is great for support material.

On the CoC d20 side, there's a lot of great advice and writing in there, and it's very helpful to read through it.  Plus, the book looks fantastic.

On the ToC there's some interesting ideas in the text, and it also sets you up to be able to use some of the great adventures/settings that have come out for it.  "Bookhounds of London" is a great idea for a campaign framework, as well.

Get ToC - it has really great materials, the mechanics aren't that bad but I think CoC is just easier in terms of them (I GMed Gumshoe for about 2 years, went back to CoC now - not much of a difference, I just had taken the idea of "spends" and applied them to skill rolls instead of constant but sure amount). And I mean really, really great materials. If only they made a campaign now...

As for CoC D20...blergh. D20.

Quote from: Rincewind1;532611As for CoC D20...blergh. D20.

Yeah, I can't imagine ever actually running the d20 version.  But the Keeper advice and adventure sound intriguing.

Quote from: jcfiala;532604...
On the ToC there's some interesting ideas in the text, and it also sets you up to be able to use some of the great adventures/settings that have come out for it.  "Bookhounds of London" is a great idea for a campaign framework, as well.

Some of the adventure/setting books for ToC sound great.  "The Armitage Files" looks especially intriguing.

Not cheap, though...

Quote from: Akrasia;532947Yeah, I can't imagine ever actually running the d20 version.  But the Keeper advice and adventure sound intriguing.

Then again, it's not like CoC's and ToC's advie is not intriguing neither (although ToC's needs a bit of un - railroading, but that's another discussion). Can never learn too little though, I guess.

Quote from: Akrasia;532949Some of the adventure/setting books for ToC sound great.  "The Armitage Files" looks especially intriguing.

Not cheap, though...

Yeah, even PDFs are quite expansive. But the quality is quite astonishing, especially of the illustrations.

I realize this isn't either of the books you were asking about, but do you have the Malleus Monstrorum for CoC?  I find that info on the various creatures in that to be miles ahead of the stuff in ToC.

As for D20 CoC, the only thing it brings to the table is good GM advice, which an experienced GM has probably already internalized.

Quote from: misterguignol;532952I realize this isn't either of the books you were asking about, but do you have the Malleus Monstrorum for CoC?  I find that info on the various creatures in that to be miles ahead of the stuff in ToC.

Yeah, the Malleus Monstrorum is close to a 'must have'... not just for CoC but for BRP in general IMO.

Quote from: Simlasa;532954Yeah, the Malleus Monstrorum is close to a 'must have'... not just for CoC but for BRP in general IMO.

I actually consider it a must-have for LotFP too!

I have never read ToC but I remember the D20 version as being very informative, I would have gotten it and ran some games if I didn't already have CoC at the time, so couldn't justify getting it.

All three lines are great. The standby is, of course, BRP CoC - still the greatest and the most substantive in terms of mechanics and background. ToC is phenomenal from start to finish; the whole line is ridiculously good. However, I don't care for the GUMSHOE system all that much. It's neat, but I haven't yet implemented it into anything other than one-shots successfully.

D20 CoC is good, especially in background, monsters, and most especially GM advice. But the rules really need revision for a second edition; they're often outright broken in many places, and I haven't yet played through a campaign that didn't need serious house ruling. HOWEVER, I absolutely adored the D20 CoC magic rules and manuscript research rules. Far better than anything in BRP, frankly.

One of the best books I've ever seen for CoC is the Cthulhu Live Second Edition book Lost Souls.  Yes, it's for a LARP, but the rules they have for playing as cultists are brilliant (I love the idea of having a "facade" mechanic alongside sanity), everything can be ported over to tabletop CoC with little to no difficult, and the background material - particularly the cults - are fantastic. If you can get ahold of a copy, I highly, highly recommend it.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;532398...
I do like their Shanghai adventure in Stunning Eldritch Tales
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/57993/Trail-of-Cthulhu%3A-Stunning-Eldritch-Tales

Quote from: jcfiala;532604"Bookhounds of London" is a great idea for a campaign framework, as well.

Thanks, I'll keep these in mind for the future.

Quote from: misterguignol;532952I realize this isn't either of the books you were asking about, but do you have the Malleus Monstrorum for CoC?  I find that info on the various creatures in that to be miles ahead of the stuff in ToC...

Thanks for the tip.  I've ordered it.

We recently finished a Trail of Cthulhu game, and in spite of that I'm afraid my opinion won't be very useful. Yes, I played the game, but didn't read it. I heard our GM say very positive things about the manual, but the system left us completely cold. I might not be able to explain what "disassociated mechanics" means, but let me say I fully got it.