Quote from: jibbajibba;521101Weapon speed & dexbonus = modifer to a d10; lowest first.....

That's 2e.

In 1e, Initiative is 1d6, roll high.  Re-reading the DMG section, it seems that at it's most basic, weapon speed and spellcasting segments subtract from the 1d6 roll.  But there is also some stuff about "if Weapon Speed is the determinant of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks."  So, if a guy with a Two Handed Sword is fighting someone with a longsword, the guy with the longsword gets two attacks.  The verbiage also implies that when this multiple attack rule comes into play, the character with the faster weapon always gets two attacks before the slower weapon, semi-regardless of possible initiative.

So, if the guy with the two handed sword rolled 6.  His initiative score would be -4.  The guy with the longsword rolls 1.  His initiative score is -4 as well.  The 2h sword has a weapon speed of 10 while the longsword has a weapon speed of 5.  Since the 2h sword is double or over 5 points beyond the weapon speed of the longsword, the longsword wielder gets two attacks before the 2h sword wielder gets to make one.  This is also an exception to the rules about iterative attacks elsewhere in the DMG.

The rule also implies that if Dex modifiers came into play the result would be the same.  If the 2h sword guy had a Reaction bonus making his initiative total -3 or lower, the longsword wielder would still get to make both attacks first because the rule says that all that matters for the multiple attacks and who goes first are the die roll and weapon speed.

The immediate problem with weapon speed is that monsters in 1e don't use it.  This means that all monsters go first, unless the MM happens to mention what weapons the monsters use.  Even then, it's tedious and obviously half assedly bolted onto the system.

Plus, most groups preferred the simplicity of group initiative over individual intiative.

Quote from: Gabriel2;521108That's 2e.

In 1e, Initiative is 1d6, roll high.  Re-reading the DMG section, it seems that at it's most basic, weapon speed and spellcasting segments subtract from the 1d6 roll.  But there is also some stuff about "if Weapon Speed is the determinant of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks."  So, if a guy with a Two Handed Sword is fighting someone with a longsword, the guy with the longsword gets two attacks.  The verbiage also implies that when this multiple attack rule comes into play, the character with the faster weapon always gets two attacks before the slower weapon, semi-regardless of possible initiative.

So, if the guy with the two handed sword rolled 6.  His initiative score would be -4.  The guy with the longsword rolls 1.  His initiative score is -4 as well.  The 2h sword has a weapon speed of 10 while the longsword has a weapon speed of 5.  Since the 2h sword is double or over 5 points beyond the weapon speed of the longsword, the longsword wielder gets two attacks before the 2h sword wielder gets to make one.  This is also an exception to the rules about iterative attacks elsewhere in the DMG.

The rule also implies that if Dex modifiers came into play the result would be the same.  If the 2h sword guy had a Reaction bonus making his initiative total -3 or lower, the longsword wielder would still get to make both attacks first because the rule says that all that matters for the multiple attacks and who goes first are the die roll and weapon speed.

The immediate problem with weapon speed is that monsters in 1e don't use it.  This means that all monsters go first, unless the MM happens to mention what weapons the monsters use.  Even then, it's tedious and obviously half assedly bolted onto the system.

Plus, most groups preferred the simplicity of group initiative over individual intiative.

Keep in mind:  Per the DMG, weapon speed only ever comes up:
a) Fighter vs. caster
b) when both parties tie initiative (and weapons are being used on both sides)

Other than that, it NEVER COMES UP.  Not really that much much of an issue in the field.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;521127Keep in mind:  Per the DMG, weapon speed only ever comes up:
a) Fighter vs. caster
b) when both parties tie initiative (and weapons are being used on both sides)

Other than that, it NEVER COMES UP.  Not really that much much of an issue in the field.

What the fuck? Almost every fight I can remember has featured spellcasters vs non-spellcasters.

Quote from: jibbajibba;521101why the percieved complexity of weapons speeds?

Its not hard right? and its like written down on your character sheet.

Weapon speed & dexbonus = modifer to a d10; lowest first.....

Not rocket science is it

The DEX bonus for combat/surprise/initiative is a positive number that gets higher with a higher ability score (DEX 18 = +3 bonus), so adding that to speed factor (higher is worse) and using that number to modify a roll where you want the low number is a bad idea.

Quote from: Elfdart;521189What the fuck? Almost every fight I can remember has featured spellcasters vs non-spellcasters.

Only applies to casters in melee, though.  A caster engaged in melee should be in a huge disadvantage, IMO.  The 1e rules make it so that even if the spellcaster wins initiative, if he's in melee he might be fucked, anyway.

Quote from: Elfdart;521189The DEX bonus for combat/surprise/initiative is a positive number that gets higher with a higher ability score (DEX 18 = +3 bonus), so adding that to speed factor (higher is worse) and using that number to modify a roll where you want the low number is a bad idea.

Its why I used a & not a +

I mean after reading my various posts do you really think that I am so insanely dim that I can'ty work out that people with 18 dex shoudl be faster than people with 3 dex ...really ?

Quote from: jibbajibba;521207Its why I used a & not a +

I mean after reading my various posts do you really think that I am so insanely dim that I can'ty work out that people with 18 dex shoudl be faster than people with 3 dex ...really ?

Well, given that you failed to spot that Elfdart's hardcore troll, that DOES make me a bit question your perception .

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;521194Only applies to casters in melee, though.  A caster engaged in melee should be in a huge disadvantage, IMO.  The 1e rules make it so that even if the spellcaster wins initiative, if he's in melee he might be fucked, anyway.

Actually, it's half again simpler than I posted - weapon speed is checked ONLY if the caster won (or tied) initiative.  If his side lost, he is attacked first, regardless.

And can I say just how SHOCKED AND APPALLED I am that an AD&D initiative thread is getting slightly contentious?  

(So, guys, what are your thoughts on the alignment system, level limits, and/or gender-based ability caps?   )

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;521320(So, guys, what are your thoughts on the alignment system, level limits, and/or gender-based ability caps?   )

You forgot Bards, Psionics, Weapon v. AC, the Assassination rules and a bunch of others in your list.

Quote from: Benoist;521321You forgot Bards, Psionics, Weapon v. AC, the Assassination rules and a bunch of others in your list.

CURSES!  I must've neglected to take the Forum Troll NWP.  I can never remember which Survival Guide that's in.

Quote from: jibbajibba;521207Its why I used a & not a +

I mean after reading my various posts do you really think that I am so insanely dim that I can'ty work out that people with 18 dex shoudl be faster than people with 3 dex ...really ?

Yes.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;521323CURSES!  I must've neglected to take the Forum Troll NWP.  I can never remember which Survival Guide that's in.

Messageboard Survival Guide.  Page 86.

Quote from: Gabriel2;521108That's 2e.

In 1e, Initiative is 1d6, roll high.  Re-reading the DMG section, it seems that at it's most basic, weapon speed and spellcasting segments subtract from the 1d6 roll.  But there is also some stuff about "if Weapon Speed is the determinant of which opponent strikes first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks."  So, if a guy with a Two Handed Sword is fighting someone with a longsword, the guy with the longsword gets two attacks.  The verbiage also implies that when this multiple attack rule comes into play, the character with the faster weapon always gets two attacks before the slower weapon, semi-regardless of possible initiative.

So, if the guy with the two handed sword rolled 6.  His initiative score would be -4.  The guy with the longsword rolls 1.  His initiative score is -4 as well.  The 2h sword has a weapon speed of 10 while the longsword has a weapon speed of 5.  Since the 2h sword is double or over 5 points beyond the weapon speed of the longsword, the longsword wielder gets two attacks before the 2h sword wielder gets to make one.  This is also an exception to the rules about iterative attacks elsewhere in the DMG.

The rule also implies that if Dex modifiers came into play the result would be the same.  If the 2h sword guy had a Reaction bonus making his initiative total -3 or lower, the longsword wielder would still get to make both attacks first because the rule says that all that matters for the multiple attacks and who goes first are the die roll and weapon speed.

The immediate problem with weapon speed is that monsters in 1e don't use it.  This means that all monsters go first, unless the MM happens to mention what weapons the monsters use.  Even then, it's tedious and obviously half assedly bolted onto the system.

Oh yeah, they made weapon speed soooo simple...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521676Oh yeah, they made weapon speed soooo simple...

RPGPundit

That's not reaaally how the rules work, though.  The "if weapon speeds are the determinant" part refers to the rule where weapon speeds (between combatants) only come into play on a tie (straight d6 rolls, no modifiers).  I'm not sure where he's getting the "weapon speeds subtracted from init roll" bit from, that doesn't actually happen in 1e.

I'm not saying it's not obtuse as fuck, it's just not actually difficult once you suss out what the hell they were getting at.  

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;521737I'm not sure where he's getting the "weapon speeds subtracted from init roll" bit from, that doesn't actually happen in 1e.

I can't find it again, so I'll just concede that my explanation was incorrect.