Quote from: B.T.;518667TCO's trolling is very subtle.

Very.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;518663I don't see Vancian magic as one of them though, and find it arrogant and condescending that you can't accept anyone else's opinion on the matter.

Well considering that only one edition of D&D omitted Vancian Magic, and that when a competitor released a competing edition that featured Vancian Magic it took the lead in the market; I don't see any argument advocating that Vancian Magic is NOT esstential to D&D holding much weight.

On the other hand I see a lot of merit to the assertion that D&D should offer a setting with or options for magic using classes that doesn't rely on Vancian Magic. As long as it not part of the core of the game I see a lot of gamers perfectly fine with that.

Quote from: estar;518721On the other hand I see a lot of merit to the assertion that D&D should offer a setting with or options for magic using classes that doesn't rely on Vancian Magic. As long as it not part of the core of the game I see a lot of gamers perfectly fine with that.

That setting exists. It's called Dark Sun.

No divine magic, and the only arcane casters PCs could play (preservers) were so lacklustre that in effect most Dark Sun campaigns were full-on martial with psionics in the mix. It's certainly one reason why I personally liked Dark Sun so much.

Then again, I don't want to overgeneralize my own take on Dark Sun, given that others probably enjoyed playing preservers or (campaign concept permitting) defilers.

[Edit.] I'll also note that 4th edition looks to me like it's the first edition ever where you can have martial-only campaigns into high level without adjusting things on the DM's side of the screen at all.

Quote from: estar;518721Well considering that only one edition of D&D omitted Vancian Magic, and that when a competitor released a competing edition that featured Vancian Magic it took the lead in the market; I don't see any argument advocating that Vancian Magic is NOT esstential to D&D holding much weight.

This is the key, and everything else is bullshit. Sales are the only real argument to be had.

Quote from: estar;518721Well considering that only one edition of D&D omitted Vancian Magic, and that when a competitor released a competing edition that featured Vancian Magic it took the lead in the market; I don't see any argument advocating that Vancian Magic is NOT esstential to D&D holding much weight.

On the other hand I see a lot of merit to the assertion that D&D should offer a setting with or options for magic using classes that doesn't rely on Vancian Magic. As long as it not part of the core of the game I see a lot of gamers perfectly fine with that.

They say the next edition is supposed to be for everybody. That includes the people who preferred how 4E did things.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;518735They say the next edition is supposed to be for everybody. That includes the people who preferred how 4E did things.

Which can be handled by a separate set of magic using classes that don't use vancian magic. Why does non-vancian has to be a option rather than a core concept? Because simply the potential fans of vancian D&D outnumber the potential fans of non-vancian D&D.

Quote from: estar;518738Which can be handled by a separate set of magic using classes that don't use vancian magic. Why does non-vancian has to be a option rather than a core concept? Because simply the potential fans of vancian D&D outnumber the potential fans of non-vancian D&D.

Again I think Vancian means different things to different people

Classic spell lists and some sort of mechanic to track what spells you cast from a list you learnt is probably vancian for most players.

Spell slots is probably not essential to all of those.

Allowing Spell slots and Spell points from the classic spell lists as core options is probably fine for most people.

Quote from: estar;518738Which can be handled by a separate set of magic using classes that don't use vancian magic. Why does non-vancian has to be a option rather than a core concept? Because simply the potential fans of vancian D&D outnumber the potential fans of non-vancian D&D.

I cool with Vancian being the core concept but what I would actually love to see is some kind of update to Vancian itself.  Say like Arcana Evolved or Experimental Might given I have all the games that give me classic Dnd vancian already. I want 5e to be its own game with its own identity first.

Quote from: estar;518738Which can be handled by a separate set of magic using classes that don't use vancian magic. Why does non-vancian has to be a option rather than a core concept? Because simply the potential fans of vancian D&D outnumber the potential fans of non-vancian D&D.

A separate set of classes that use magic is good enough for me if that set can cover all the bases(which includes space occupied by the traditional Vancian classes) and doesn't make those options second rate compared to Vancian classes(which is what happened in 3.5E).

As for option/core-concept, the issue is wanting to build and  play any traditional D&D concept without having to deal with mechanics you detest, and the modular ability for a DM to completely remove Vancian magic from the game without removing essential D&D tropes(like the Wizard).

Last I checked, the attitude 5E was being designed under(at least as advertised) isn't lets cater to the majority and fuck everyone else. There is a significant section of the D&D community hostile to Vancian magic, and this goes back a long time. We've had an entire edition without it. It may not be a majority, and it isn't just about Vancian magic, but I think its enough to maintain D&D as a fragmented community and maintain the Edition Wars at a decent intensity of 5E screws that section of the community over, all of which would be a failure of their stated goals.

Yes, but it turns out that cunts such as yourself aren't enough to sustain sales.

Quote from: B.T.;518769Yes, but it turns out that cunts such as yourself aren't enough to sustain sales.

And the OSR hasn't spawned some megagame which has destroyed post-WotC D&D, what's your point? My point is at this point in time, WotC is saying they are making 5E for EVERYBODY, and "fuck you 4E cunts" doesn't fit with what they say their goals are.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;518774And the OSR hasn't spawned some megagame which has destroyed post-WotC D&D, what's your point. My point is at this point in time, WotC is saying they are making 5E for EVERYBODY, and "fuck you 4E cunts" doesn't fit with what they say their goals are.

I agree with you this is their goal, and i think they shouod serve all their customers at this stage (not just 4E, old school, 3e, etc). But to do that effectively the core game cant be offensive to any of these groups. That is the real trick.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;518775I agree with you this is their goal, and i think they shouod serve all their customers at this stage (not just 4E, old school, 3e, etc). But to do that effectively the core game cant be offensive to any of these groups. That is the real trick.

To that I would add that I think if the AD&D crowd was given everything they want, the end result would be offensive to a large enough group of people for WotC's goal of uniting the D&D commnunity to be a complete failure.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;518776To that I would add that I think if the AD&D crowd was given everything they want, the end result would be offensive to a large enough group of people for WotC's goal of uniting the D&D commnunity to be a complete failure.

It isnt about giving everyone what they want in core, but leaving out the elements that would be major dealbreakers. I think they can get away with vancian as core and adding in options to help 4e fans work around it. But if they were to include healing surges or 4e powers in te core i suspect they would lose the customers they are trying to regain.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;518780It isnt about giving everyone what they want in core, but leaving out the elements that would be major dealbreakers. I think they can get away with vancian as core and adding in options to help 4e fans work around it. But if they were to include healing surges or 4e powers in te core i suspect they would lose the customers they are trying to regain.

OFT.  Keep it lean and simple like BMXI or whatever and then add on to your heart's content.  I for one wouldn't even give the game a chance if powers or healing surges are core.