Quote from: B.T.;503765Dexterity check or die?  Sounds like a shitty GM.  Dexterity check or slip is another thing, but telling you straight off the bat that your character falls to his death unless you pass a check is junk.

Yeah, I agree. He missed an opportunity to describe your character holding on for dear life while his companions do their very best to safe him, with rope or a chain of people and all that good stuff.

Here's my take on the dex check or die.

DM: There's a single-file trail around the mountain.
Me: Okay, I take the trail.
DM: Dex check or fall and die, sucka!
Me: You said this was wide enough for us to go single file. Space for one person is 5 feet - why am I making a dex check?
DM: No, it's a narrow ledge, only inches wide, and there's a howling wind!
Me: Oh, then I'd have driven pitons into the wall, and I'd be roping myself along.
DM: No way, you said you took the trail, you didn't mention the pitons.
Me: And you didn't mention 'inches wide' and 'howling wind'. I guess it's just a day for missing important bits of communication, isn't it?

I would say that Emulation with Fun is the way to think of things; however, I also do agree that the OP scenario explains why generally speaking, fast character creation is better than lengthy character creation.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kaldric;503952Here's my take on the dex check or die.

DM: There's a single-file trail around the mountain.
Me: Okay, I take the trail.
DM: Dex check or fall and die, sucka!
Me: You said this was wide enough for us to go single file. Space for one person is 5 feet - why am I making a dex check?
DM: No, it's a narrow ledge, only inches wide, and there's a howling wind!
Me: Oh, then I'd have driven pitons into the wall, and I'd be roping myself along.
DM: No way, you said you took the trail, you didn't mention the pitons.
Me: And you didn't mention 'inches wide' and 'howling wind'. I guess it's just a day for missing important bits of communication, isn't it?

This is a great example of a pathetic DM...

Omnifray, has this actually happened to you as player, or been done by you as GM?

Because I'm not that interested in hypotheticals, I like to hear what's happened at the game table. Until I hear that, we can leave comment aside. Anything might happen. What has happened?

Most of the rest of the posters in this thread have confused an individual character death with a TPK. Those are different things. One PC dies, big deal, make another one, game on. Whole party dies, well could be time to reassess... tactics, players and their style, GM style, whatever - depends on circumstances, which Omnifray has rather unhelpfully omitted.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;504330Omnifray, has this actually happened to you as player, or been done by you as GM?

Because I'm not that interested in hypotheticals, I like to hear what's happened at the game table. Until I hear that, we can leave comment aside. Anything might happen. What has happened?

Most of the rest of the posters in this thread have confused an individual character death with a TPK. Those are different things. One PC dies, big deal, make another one, game on. Whole party dies, well could be time to reassess... tactics, players and their style, GM style, whatever - depends on circumstances, which Omnifray has rather unhelpfully omitted.

I know what's a TPK, mate. In fact, if anything - if party blows itself up on their own will and stupid, obvious mistakes, I prefer TPKs, since it saves me the time of figuring out how to introduce the new character.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;504330Omnifray, has this actually happened to you as player, or been done by you as GM?

Because I'm not that interested in hypotheticals, I like to hear what's happened at the game table. Until I hear that, we can leave comment aside. Anything might happen. What has happened?

Most of the rest of the posters in this thread have confused an individual character death with a TPK. Those are different things. One PC dies, big deal, make another one, game on. Whole party dies, well could be time to reassess... tactics, players and their style, GM style, whatever - depends on circumstances, which Omnifray has rather unhelpfully omitted.

It's a real case but not my personal story so I don't want to be broadcasting the details on the Internet. Suffice to say CharGen had not been a ten minute job, there were other questions surrounding the GMing decisions and then there was a player death before anything interesting had time to happen in the game. I wish I could tell you more but it wouldn't be right.

I don't think the solution is simple CharGen. Simple CharGen restrictions what you can do with the game. I am comfortable with an hour's CharGen. In fact the way I GM, though the players constantly claim to be terrified, I have a very low fatality rate, even without fudging. But I don't want to design a game with lengthy CharGen then get people to GM it in a way which kills off their mates' PCs within 2 minutes. What a waste of everyone's CharGen time - even if they find CharGen moderately agreeable in itself, it's hardly the point of the game.

Well, as I like to say - a GM should  really always allow the players to make their own ropes to hang themselves with. Killing people 10 minutes in if you FORCE them into life or death situation is a bit lame.

Unless it's Doomtrooper game, or any other battlefield simulation one.

Yes, there is definitely a minimum play : preparation ratio that most players will tolerate. If it takes 5-10' to make a character, most people won't care if they die in the first hour of play. But if it's something complex minimaxed thing with a backstory it took 6 hours to create, well that bastard better survive a two year campaign!

Situations should not be automatically inevitably fatal, nor automatically inevitable harmless. It should be up to the players and the dice. The whole point of a roleplaying game is that you get to use your wits to influence the outcome. If the outcome is predetermined, it's pointless - whether that outcome is TPK or Monty Haul.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;504303This is a great example of a pathetic DM...

Since I didn't tell the entire scenario, only what happened to my character, why do you assume that? Of course there was more to it. I was the cocky player character(with a 19 DEX) who figured that I didn't NEED any safety precautions...

Quote from: DominikSchwager;503700I am a storygamer. I let the dice fall where they fall. I don't fudge, cheat or roll behind a screen.
If your character dies 5 minutes into the game, well tough luck, but the story goes on. There are other characters at the table that will have to react to that death, NPC your character was connected with etc etc.
But I have to admit that there are no random fights against goblins in my games, so my style might not be applicable to most of you.

What does you being a storygamer have to do with letting the dice fall where they fall?

Quote from: greylond;504606Since I didn't tell the entire scenario, only what happened to my character, why do you assume that? Of course there was more to it. I was the cocky player character(with a 19 DEX) who figured that I didn't NEED any safety precautions...

SO why could not hear the HOWLING WIND???   Do you have to make a check to hear the howling wind or feel it as it as tearing into you???

The DM is LAME.

Nope, the DM was very good. I was just being Cocky thinking that I could make it along the ledge. It WAS my fault. Why do people have to assume the DM was lame? I'm telling you, it WAS my fault. I was young, and hadn't learned enough of RPG tactics...

Now, the friend that hit us with 3 Red Dragons as a Random Encounter with No WAY out, that was a poor GM. In that case we were still in our first year of playing RPGs and back then there wasn't a lot of easily accessible info on gaming, i.e. No Intrawebs...

Quote from: Omnifray;504886What does you being a storygamer have to do with letting the dice fall where they fall?

Fudging dice is something only certain trad gamers do.

For me, it depends. If, as GM, I failed to describe something appropriately or my minor encounter with a bandit ends up wiping out the party due to insane dice rolls, I'd likely just restart using the same characters.

If the players are doing stupid crap even after I've warned them, then they die.