Quote from: daniel_ream;501310For network television, "good" is irrelevant.  What matters is ratings, and Firefly never had them, nor was it ever going to given its High Concept premise.

A lot of fans don't watch anything but SF and genre shows, too, which are rather famous for being in a quality ghetto.  Firefly is certainly better than, say, Space Precinct; it's not better than I, Claudius, or The Fugitive, or Twin Peaks.

Not better than I, Claudius or The Fugitive is something I can agree with. Twin Peaks was not better than Firefly/Serenity, however - David Lynch is not the genius people think he is.

I thought Firefly was the best sci fi sense Battlestar.

I never cared about the sci-fi part of Serenity. I wanted to watch the riverboat show it really was. It was frustrating.

I enjoyed some episodes of Firefly, and even a couple of Buffy, but generally, Whedon is a hack.

Quote from: jeff37923;501289Remember, FOX also raped Space: Above and Beyond many years before.

Space: Above and Beyond was one of the best shows of the 90's, but it was ahead of its time in terms of audience expectations. If it had been released in the post-Sopranos era by HBO or FX or Showtime, I think we'd be debating the merits of season 5 vs. 6, instead of pondering what a second season would have been like.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501334Space: Above and Beyond was one of the best shows of the 90's, but it was ahead of its time in terms of audience expectations. If it had been released in the post-Sopranos era by HBO or FX or Showtime, I think we'd be debating the merits of season 5 vs. 6, instead of pondering what a second season would have been like.

Oh hells yes, I remember this show and it was fucking awesome.

Not sure if it would measure up to today's expectations, it seemed a bit aimed at history buffs and armchair generals with its frequent referencing historical battles, but I'd say, yes, the world is ready for a decent MilSF TV series which focused equal parts in character development and gritty space warfare.

If any show from the ninties needs a remake Space above and beyond fits the bill perfectly, it's just a pitty nobody has considered it.

Quote from: stu2000;501333I enjoyed some episodes of Firefly, and even a couple of Buffy, but generally, Whedon is a hack.

In what way?

Quote from: The Butcher;501340Oh hells yes, I remember this show and it was fucking awesome.

Not sure if it would measure up to today's expectations, it seemed a bit aimed at history buffs and armchair generals with its frequent referencing historical battles, but I'd say, yes, the world is ready for a decent MilSF TV series which focused equal parts in character development and gritty space warfare.

Considering recent history in America, I think that a MilSF TV show that was a parable of our own wars would be a hit.

It'd fit Starz or AMC perfectly aswell which is why its a mystery there's nothing like it at the moment.

Quote from: TristramEvans;501342In what way?

I think his writing is weakened by high concept and thin characterization. His dialog is normally pretty cheap, although I'll acknowledge some nice pieces. His simultaneously pining after and deeply fearing women is an acceptable idea to explore sometimes, but it's been beaten to death. It's distracting.

I like the music he writes for his shows. The Buffy musical, though a gimmick, was nicely done. He definitely has (had?) a pretty good feel for the geek world and was able to incorporate those tropes and expectations into his work. However--since I like the icing on his shows so much, it accetuates how stale the cake is.

Just for contrast, my favorite TV hack is Donald Bellisario. He's the one who reconfigured Shane for my favorite Battlestar Galactica episode. He recycled the material for Tales of the Gold Monkey and Airwolf, as well. Probably Magnum, too, but I can't place the episode. Like Whedon, he recycles a consistent group of types for his main characters and beats the same tricks to death. I don't necessarily think he's a better writer than Whedon--none of these TV cats are Thomas Pynchon. But I find his work a little more entertaining than Whedon's.

Entirely possible it's an age thing. I was high school when Bellisario's early shows came on, and I ate those up. I like NCIS now. His work shows growth. I wasn't really aware of Whedon until much later. I think I was 30 or so when the Buffy series came on. It didn't immediately appeal, but I probably would've gone nuts for it in high school. Then it would've formed the basis of my expectations the way Ba Ba Blacksheep or Battlestar Galactica formed that basis earlier.

I never criticize folks for liking what they like--I just b=never have been part of the Whedon fan club.

I'm mildly entertained by the fact that I have the DVD box sets of Tales of the Gold Monkey and Space: Above and Beyond sitting on the shelf next to me right now.

If I had to vote for a 90's SF TV show to be remade, I'd vote for Alien Nation.  Take out the hamfisted fantasy racism and the cartoonish characterization and make a show about the clash of cultures, with - for once - a well-thought-out detailed alien culture.

I am not a Whedon fan. Buffy bores me to tears. I don't even know what doll house is about. But I love Firefly. I'm watching the episodes and the movie over and over again with my wife and it's like... home, now, in a way. I just love it.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I don’t care, I’m still free.

You can't take the sky from meeeee!



Though The Ballade of Hero of Canton still beats all.

Quote from: Benoist;501404I don't even know what doll house is about.

Dollhouse is the abyss staring back in to you.  Dollhouse is the last imperceptible sound of the last quarks in the universe decaying.  Dollhouse is a 2AM wrong number phone-call from NORAD trying to reach the President to inform him that 2400 Russian warheads are being tracked inbound to target. Dollhouse is what J-Horror films try to imply.  Dollhouse is the vision of Gehenna laid over the world for a fraction of a second while your eyes are shut when you blink.  Dollhouse is finding out H.P. Lovecraft was actually writing real articles couched in pulp stories, and it isn't cool or hip or funny because Elder Things did create you, and giant Polyps are loose.  Dollhouse is The Stand that ends on page 30 with a 100% infection rate.  Dollhouse is finding out that your parents are over the Moral Panic of D&D in the 80s because they've come out as LaVeyan Satanists - and the Devil is real.  Dollhouse is finding out that there is no Santa Claus, but there is Krampus and he's coming after your kids.  Dollhouse is a Joss Whedon show about Magic Girlsrobot whores that heclients can turn on and off at will and Whedonthe company that makes them can erase their memories because they laughed at him in highschoolfor discretion's sake.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;501422Dollhouse is the abyss staring back in to you.  Dollhouse is the last imperceptible sound of the last quarks in the universe decaying.  Dollhouse is a 2AM wrong number phone-call from NORAD trying to reach the President to inform him that 2400 Russian warheads are being tracked inbound to target. Dollhouse is what J-Horror films try to imply.  Dollhouse is the vision of Gehenna laid over the world for a fraction of a second while your eyes are shut when you blink.  Dollhouse is finding out H.P. Lovecraft was actually writing real articles couched in pulp stories, and it isn't cool or hip or funny because Elder Things did create you, and giant Polyps are loose.  Dollhouse is The Stand that ends on page 30 with a 100% infection rate.  Dollhouse is finding out that your parents are over the Moral Panic of D&D in the 80s because they've come out as LaVeyan Satanists - and the Devil is real.  Dollhouse is finding out that there is no Santa Claus, but there is Krampus and he's coming after your kids.  Dollhouse is a Joss Whedon show about Magic Girlsrobot whores that heclients can turn on and off at will and Whedonthe company that makes them can erase their memories because they laughed at him in highschoolfor discretion's sake.

You could've just said it sucks, you know.

Dollhouse is that show where the main character gets a new memory/personality every episode, right?