Chapter 1

The first thing the book mentions and dice, and describes all the dice we all know from the d4 to the d100. It then moves on to creating a character and setting up your character sheet, which they say will fit on an index card and I believe they're right. This contrasts to the 5-7 page character sheets I used to use from the 4E Character Builder(I now use my iPad as my character sheet).

The next part is rolling ability scores, and the method involved is rolling 3d6 in order. This shows a contrast in style. In 3E and 4E, we usually used point buy to create characters based on a concept we put together before character creation with the intention of it being a long term commitment. The plan being that the game would be a long term campaign with an ongoing story that begins the first session. What completely random stat generation gives you is the element of surprise. You don't get the character you really wanted, and it doesn't really fit the play the character you imagine in a story that begins day 1 style. On the other hand, in a Gygaxian style deadly game, the randomness isn't so bad, as you'll likely be going through a few characters before one of them sticks, and just surviving for a few levels can build an attachment to it. That being said, the stats in this game don't do a lot. High Strength only adds +1 to hit and damage for 13+(an 18 doesn't really mean much, giving the same bonus as a 13), same for Dex and AC, Con and HP. I kind of like this, as I think the disparity between stat bonus for high and low stats in 3E/4E is too high, where if you don't have a high score you're going to suck at everything involving that stat. Interesting is that 13+ Wisdom and Charisma actually give you +5% experience points, so those stats actually do something. I wonder if OD&D was this way, where Charisma started out being helpful and then was abandoned and dumped for the next two or three editions.

Horseshit, and lame trolling at that.

You are baiting, TCO. You can go fuck yourself.

They're random because they're aids to characterization, rather than indicators of success or failure.

In RPGs, ability scores are random in inverse proportion to how important they are.

In S&W, they mean, as you noted, very little. In 4E, they are used on nearly every kind of roll you'll make. Hence, S&W has almost completely random stats, and 4E has point buy.

Randomness isn't fair if the stats are vital. If they're not vital, then randomness simply allows fast character creation and imparts a pleasing variety to characterization. If you don't like the stats... just rationalize why your character acts the way you want him to, anyway.

Quote from: Benoist;499257Horseshit, and lame trolling at that.

You are baiting, TCO. You can go fuck yourself.

Yes, that is obvious here. However I think it is indicative of how scared TCO is that his previous trolling arguements are being undermined.

Chapter 2: Character Classes

First of is Clerics, and the first thing I notice is that their Hit Die is 1d6+1, which is mathematically similar to 1d8. Like basic D&D, the Cleric does not start with a spell at 1st level, unless you get the bonus spell for 13+ Wisdom. Spells go up to level 7, but there's a big wait until level 6/7 spells. Next up is the Fighting Man. He gets 1d6+2 as his Hit Die(again, mathematically similar to 1d10), and his saving throws are one better than the Cleric. His only class feature is getting multiple attacks equal to his level against creatures with less than one Hit Die. He does get proficiency in everything, like always. Rounding out things is the Magic User, who gets 1d6-1 HP per level(again, similar to the d4). He also gets +2 saving throws vs. spells, which seems pretty handy. Next we have races as classes. First up is the Dwarf, who aside from trading multiple attacks vs. weak enemies for +4 saves vs magical effects(I'd be inclined to take that trade) seems almost an exact copy of the Fighter. This Dwarf doesn't seem to have any level limits, but levels slowly past 6. Next is Elves, who gain darkvision and find secret doors, and can go back and forth between Fighting Man and Magic User. The system for this seems rather bizarre to me. You can pick a class at the start of the day, you are purely that class(you forget the other one?) and you apply your experience points to that class only. I'm not really sure why you'd switch back and forth. Leveling is expensive past level 9, but again no level limits(I'm surprised). Then we have the Halfling, who sucks, unless he's a Thief(included later in the book) because the book isn't clear on whether the Halfling has a level limit as a Thief(unlike being limited to a level 4 Fighting Man). Last part of this chapter is choosing an alignment, and the rules here are a bit vague. It mentions Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, and Neutral but doesn't specify how to use them. It mentions if you want a default, go with Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral as the three alignments to choose from, like BECMI. I'm not really a fan of alignment anymore. After a while I found the 9 alignments of 1E-3.5E somewhat silly and limiting, and liked how 4E shook that up and in particular removed alignment from almost all game mechanics. I'm curious to see if alignment has any game mechanics attached to it in later chapters.

Quote from: Benoist;499257Horseshit, and lame trolling at that.

You are baiting, TCO. You can go fuck yourself.

I'm only baiting so much as you choose to be baited. I'm doing this perfectly straight, with the book next to me and describing what I read and how I feel about it. I plan on being honest and non-inflammatory.

Chapter 2: Character Classes(addendum)

(It occurred later that I left this out)

There are only three classes here, and three races. One of the races copies two of the three classes(though only one at a time), the Dwarf is very similar to the Fighting Man, and the Halfling sucks. So in the end, pretty much three classes, mechanically speaking(playing Elves and Dwarves does mean something aesthetically). This is a little less choice than I'm used to, pretty much dating back forever. When I began playing with 2E, We had 8(10 if you include specialist Priests and Wizards) classes and a pile of multiclass options. 3E and 4E have dozens, and a multiclassing extravaganza. That being said, the three most important bases are covered, and while I like options I don't think it ruins the game to only have three(or so). I first picked up the BECMI books as a child, and read them to the point of memorization(never could get a game off the ground, 12yr olds make horrible DMs), and the aesthetics of this book kind of bring me back to those days. The biggest change for me is that the system is as bare as it is after playing 10 years of mechanically arcane D&D, with infinite fiddly bits. Its intriguing, but I'm not sure I'd run it over 2E, which I have a long history with and scratches a similar itch.

A point about the elf. You switch because you're not always going out with the same group. In a campaign, you could have 20 different characters, each coming back to base and going out on adventures in shifting groups.

In that situation, an elf is a useful and versatile character. Need a fighter for an adventure? He's a fighter. Need a magic-user? He's there.

Chapter 3: Items and Equipment

I take a look at the mundane items list, and it brings back memories of playing low level 2E. In those days, we played games where our characters really didn't have high impact skills(like 3E or 4E) to solve problems, and for the first few levels(1-4) the quasi-random things in your inventory actually mattered, and you'd find creative ways to use them. My personal favorite item was paper and ink, which I always found a use for, writing notes to NPCs and drawing things we had to remember. In 3E, PCs started kicking ass about level 3 and our mundane inventory got boring, and in 4E you kick ass from level 1. I played 3E starting at level 1 so rarely I can't specifically remember doing it(I had to fight tooth and nail as a DM to start any lower than 5th). I've started at level 1 many times as a 4E player, and generally I usually pick up an Adventurer's Kit(just for appearances) and nothing else, and never ever use it. That stuff just can't seem to compete with 4E combat ability or the skills the party has, and looking back on when inventory did matter, I kind of miss it. All my old friends are on this list, which looks similar to any I've read from 1E on.

There is a weapon section, which seems to have the damage dice from 1E(vs small or medium enemies). Is this a change from OD&D, I thought everything was d6s? No bother, its more interesting to have weapons deal varying damage. Bows and Darts also have higher rates of fire than just once per turn, again mirroring AD&D. The book gives two options for AC, using descending AC(presumably with THAC0) or ascending AC like 3E.

Last is a section on Encumbrance, historically one of the most ignored rules in the game. More weight slows you down as usual, and they give vague rules for movement. We do have the classic D&D rule that coins/gems are 10 to a pound, with all the frustrating consequences I remember(and why we used to love the Bag of Holding so much). There's a neat little line about it, where the book says "but that's just the way of things in a fantasy world. Coins should clink, and gems should be the size of dice". I remember all my immature monty haul games where we would try to load and overload our characters to the maximum limit trying to carry thousands of coins that weighed 1/10 of a pound, and playing the AD&D computer games which enforced this rule, and having to throw away treasure. I think 4E has rules for Encumbrance, though I have yet to see them used.

There's an interesting bit on movement, detailing circumstances when you are allowed and forbidden to map. I've never played in a game that hardcore(not with real people, though I played a shit ton of The Bard's Tale for Apple II and mapping was 80% of the game)about mapping, and its interesting to see it put in print.

Quote from: Kaldric;499264A point about the elf. You switch because you're not always going out with the same group. In a campaign, you could have 20 different characters, each coming back to base and going out on adventures in shifting groups.

In that situation, an elf is a useful and versatile character. Need a fighter for an adventure? He's a fighter. Need a magic-user? He's there.

Ah, makes a little sense when you describe it that way. It seems a bit frustrating to split your gear and xp between them though.

Casting spells in heavy armor makes up for it, for me. Elves had to have the restrictions they did, back then, or everyone would have been an elf. They were bad-ass.

Quote from: Kaldric;499270Casting spells in heavy armor makes up for it, for me. Elves had to have the restrictions they did, back then, or everyone would have been an elf. They were bad-ass.

I missed the casting in magical armor part. That does make a big difference.

I'm going to continue this tomorrow, I'm falling asleep.

A 3e player reads 4e DnD.


It sucks.

The End.

Quote from: Rincewind1;499277A 3e player reads 4e DnD.


It sucks.

The End.

1/10

Considering this previous post, maybe I'll regret this, but I'm willing to give TCO the benefit of doubt.

Interesting to learn that you've entered the hobby via 2e. So did I (actually BECMI/RC followed by 2e), but I've gone the opposite way; bought into 3e, burned out circa 2007-2008, and have been taking up pre-2e D&D and its retro-clones since then.

Is this just a "let's read" thread, or do you intend to get actual gaming done with S&W?