Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478112My understanding is Asian americans object to the term because its opposite, occidental, isn't applied to non-asians.

I use Occidental plenty!   And I've had Americans correct me:  "No, you mean Oriental..."  (this was in a PBEM with an Oerth-style 'flipped' world-map, the Chinese-analogues were in the west).

Quote from: S'mon;478116I use Occidental plenty!   And I've had Americans correct me:  "No, you mean Oriental..."  (this was in a PBEM with an Oerth-style 'flipped' world-map, the Chinese-analogues were in the west).

I think occidental gets some use here but mostly as an academic term. Like Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology.

Quote from: S'mon;478104Eh, Jesus explictly said DON'T STONE THE ADULTERERS.  :rolleyes:

Well he was reported as saying that but a bunch of guys that never met him. But the whole business with dropping dietary requires etc had to wait til Paul saw it as an opportunity to recruit more Romans.

but this could so easily derail into an arguement about Christianity so lets stick to Goblinoids Or giants out of interest, how do we feel about killing all Stone Giants when they are Neutral bu the book.

Or evil characters killing all the human children. its no different afterall and in fact is far easier to defend in terms of the PC alignment.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478118but this could so easily derail into an arguement about Christianity so lets stick to Goblinoids Or giants out of interest, how do we feel about killing all Stone Giants when they are Neutral bu the book.

For me it killing stone giants for simply being stone giants isn't good. But my games are combat light and I don't run dungeon crawls or hack n slash adventures (I can see how someone running these would take a different view on alignment).

QuoteOr evil characters killing all the human children. its no different afterall and in fact is far easier to define in terms of the PC alignment.

I may be unclear on what you mean to say here, but I don't think anyone would say that evil characters killing children are violating their alignment (since that is an evil act). But I would also call killing orc children evil as well in my games. (Didn't the knights of the dinner table have a whole strip on this issue?). But it is also just a game, so if my players are going to go around wasting orcs because they are there, I won't take issue with it or get all indignant. It isn't like I believe there is a connection between behavior in the game world and real life.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;478120I may be unclear on what you mean to say here, but I don't think anyone would say that evil characters killing children are violating their alignment (since that is an evil act). But I would also call killing orc children evil as well in my games. (Didn't the knights of the dinner table have a whole strip on this issue?). But it is also just a game, so if my players are going to go around wasting orcs because they are there, I won't take issue with it or get all indignant. It isn't like I believe there is a connection between behavior in the game world and real life.

I agree with you. I never think that game play will filter into real life.
For me the whole killing orc children thing is fine so long as the players know its an evil act and don't try to defend their paladin as a paladin of good as a result.

I do know plenty of DMs that woudl balk at their PCs killing human children though. They like their evil moustachio twirling, with an evil laugh but no actually nastiness.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478118Or evil characters killing all the human children. its no different afterall and in fact is far easier to defend in terms of the PC alignment.

I would shift their Alignment to Evil immediately.

Oh, wait...

Eh, what's the problem?  I expect CE PCs to say things like "Kill everyone in the village".  If your players appear to be relishing detailed descriptions of child murder, then that's a player issue, get rid of them.  There's no PC issue.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478121I agree with you. I never think that game play will filter into real life.
For me the whole killing orc children thing is fine so long as the players know its an evil act and don't try to defend their paladin as a paladin of good as a result.
.

With Paladins I tend to be tough because they get all kinds of goodies and it is supposed to be balanced by them being lawful good. So for me lawful good characters wouldn't just slaughter orc children. I have heard arguments to the contrary, but I just don't see that as comforning to respect for life and  law.

Shit, I missed several pages of "orcs = black people".
 
Crazy idea. Since obviously Drow are black people...

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;478126Shit, I missed several pages of "orcs = black people".
 
Crazy idea. Since obviously Drow are black people...

No Drow are sneaky Chinese oriental types that look like black people. You missed the memo

Those Ralpartha orcs are from The All American range that they came out with in response to GW's European Range which places them BEFORE THEY GOT THE D&D LISCENCE.  The orcs from Crucible AFTER THEY LOST IT AND FASA BOUGHT THEM OUT also look like Zulus.  I know because the ones pictured have cast on bases not plastic slotta bases.

Are historical wargamers playing out scenarios in Colonial Africa racist?

The earlier Ral Partha orcs by Tom Meir look more like Romans with big crazy falcheons.

The later ones from Battle Storm look more like traditional fantasy orcs.  Warcraft orcs in particular...

Anyhow, there's a really simple GMing solution to the women and children debate.  Make the dungeon a military outpost with no women or children.  Alternately you could make orcs like ants with the warriors and drones all being female but still looking like orcs, though you certainly couldn't use the Tom Meir orcs that way .  That throws a whole new angle on the half orcs and rape thing.  Maybe they have an irresistable hormones that force errections?

Anyhow, as far as orc children go there's an unspoken assumption that they are weak and innocent like human children.  (well victorian idealizations of human children anyhow)  When it's entirely possible that they are savage frenzied tooth and claw horror swarms like the critters from Galaxy Quest.

Quote from: David Johansen;478130Anyhow, as far as orc children go there's an unspoken assumption that they are weak and innocent like human children.  (well victorian idealizations of human children anyhow)  When it's entirely possible that they are savage frenzied tooth and claw horror swarms like the critters from Galaxy Quest.

Or my boy.  

Edit: Here he is in a rare contemplative moment having just dispatched a small rodentoid lifeform.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478118but this could so easily derail into an arguement about Christianity so lets stick to Goblinoids Or giants out of interest, how do we feel about killing all Stone Giants when they are Neutral bu the book.

Better than that. 30% of the time, Stone Giants are encountered in their lair. When that happens, there is a 50% chance of there being one or two females, and a 25% chance of there being one or two children. Unlike for Orcs, Stone Giant women and children have combat stats. Stone Giant women are 8 hit die creatures and Stone Giant children are d% * 9 + 1-3 hit points hit die creatures (yes, really. Welcome to world of obtuse mathematical expressions that is AD&D).

QuoteOr evil characters killing all the human children. its no different afterall and in fact is far easier to defend in terms of the PC alignment.

I actually find this much easier to take. In either case, you're passive an explicit moral judgement on the action, but in the case of the evil character, you are judging the character to be doing the wrong thing. I have no problem with people taking the roles of villains and acting out villainous behavior. It's when they act out villainous behavior and then try to tell me that they are taking the roles of good guys that I have a problem.

If someone wants to do morally complex things with their morally complex character, that's great. But when someone does something reprehensible and then tries to tell me that the character is behaving capital-G Godd, then that's sick.

-Frank

Quote from: David Johansen;478130Those Ralpartha orcs are from The All American range that they came out with in response to GW's European Range which places them BEFORE THEY GOT THE D&D LISCENCE.  The orcs from Crucible AFTER THEY LOST IT AND FASA BOUGHT THEM OUT also look like Zulus.  I know because the ones pictured have cast on bases not plastic slotta bases.

Are historical wargamers playing out scenarios in Colonial Africa racist?

The earlier Ral Partha orcs by Tom Meir look more like Romans with big crazy falcheons.

The later ones from Battle Storm look more like traditional fantasy orcs.  Warcraft orcs in particular...

Anyhow, there's a really simple GMing solution to the women and children debate.  Make the dungeon a military outpost with no women or children.  Alternately you could make orcs like ants with the warriors and drones all being female but still looking like orcs, though you certainly couldn't use the Tom Meir orcs that way .  That throws a whole new angle on the half orcs and rape thing.  Maybe they have an irresistable hormones that force errections?

Anyhow, as far as orc children go there's an unspoken assumption that they are weak and innocent like human children.  (well victorian idealizations of human children anyhow)  When it's entirely possible that they are savage frenzied tooth and claw horror swarms like the critters from Galaxy Quest.

But that is one of the OP points right. You can remove the orcs kids problem easily but the base games doesn't do that although you are still expected to kill em and not ask questions.

Quote from: jibbajibba;478135But that is one of the OP points right. You can remove the orcs kids problem easily but the base games doesn't do that although you are still expected to kill em and not ask questions.

I guess I don't see where the expectation that you will kill the children is coming from. Just because they have kids, and orcs are evil, that doesn't mean you are expected to kill their children.

QuoteAre historical wargamers playing out scenarios in Colonial Africa racist?

Depends. If they are using historically accurate army uniforms and formations, no. If they are using weird racist exaggerations of the African armies, then yes.

Playing Belgians vs. Congolese or Belgians vs. Zanzibar is problematic, because a whole lot of atrocities were committed. But no more or differently problematic than playing World War II scenarios out. As long as proper respect is being paid to historicity, you're in the clear.

-Frank