Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471059Ha! Your logic-fu is weak! It is but 10 points to buy it!

22 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.

QuoteGood God! Ten points? I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!

Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470817Oh, okay.  I'll bite.

Champions isn't an RPG.  It's a single unit tactical superhero wargame.  And it doesn't even do that well.

I don't entirley agree, but there is a kernel of truth to that.

Champions dwells too much on the combat mechanics and it leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics, or the almost insultingly almost insultingly simplistic mechanics of "roll 3d6 under your stealth threshold to sneak into the enemy base".

That said, the game lets me make pretty much any power set I want and puts numbers on super strength that I can put into physics equations. So as a launch point for magical teaparty it's really good.

-Frank

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471047I shall now present the only thing you need to know to like Hero System, from the page 334 sidebar:

Throwing Badger: Ranged Killing Attack 1d6, Constant (+1/2); (22 Active Points), Obvious Accessible Focus (It's a badger; -1), Range based on STR (-1/4). Total Cost: 10 points.

It has the opposite effect on me: it makes me dislike the Hero System. This is one of my biggest complaints about the system: every thing a normal human can do has to be bought as a power if a character wants to be able to do it in the game. Anyone (assuming they are strong enough) can pick up and throw a badger. If you have enough strength, you shouldn't have to buy some special throwing badger power to do so.

And yes, this is the same issue I have with many feats in 3.x games: they often cover things anyone should be able to attempt without taking any special ability/feat.

Quote from: daniel_ream;47106722 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.



Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.

HA!  Got it for SIX POINTS - behold my minmaxing! :

Thrown Badger:  Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 2 rounds (-1 3/4), OAF (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), Reduced By Range (Range Based on STR; -1/4), Inaccurate 1/2 OCV (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)

Restrainable because if somebody grabs your hands you're not going to throw a badger anywhere; recoverable charge which recovers every 2 rounds (ever try to chase a badger down???), no knockback - it just latches on and claws, inaccurate (badgers aren't aerodynamic!)

WOO!

Now let the next challenger approach!  

Bah!  Amateurs!  Just take a pet badger as a special effect and throw it at people.

Quote from: daniel_ream;47106722 Active points, which has to be compared against the GM's Power Active point Limit, and the DC checked to ensure it's not above the DC limit for the campaign, and zzzzzzz.



Make it a single Recoverable continuing charge of one minute (the badger eventually gets bored, and you have to go and get the badger if you want to use it again) (-1/2) to eliminate the END cost and add Reduced Penetration (-1/4) because badgers can't chew through chain mail.

Yeah, but then you only have one Badger. With the original Throwing Badger, you can throw Throwing Badgers until the proverbial undead cows come home.

Plus, the original Throwing Badger can't chew through chain mail, anyway - Chainmail has 6 resistant Physical Defense. Although I suppose you could use a Ranged Martial Maneuver with your Throwing Badger, which would probably SFX as throwing it at your target's face...

Quote from: RandallS;471107It has the opposite effect on me: it makes me dislike the Hero System. This is one of my biggest complaints about the system: every thing a normal human can do has to be bought as a power if a character wants to be able to do it in the game. Anyone (assuming they are strong enough) can pick up and throw a badger. If you have enough strength, you shouldn't have to buy some special throwing badger power to do so.

And yes, this is the same issue I have with many feats in 3.x games: they often cover things anyone should be able to attempt without taking any special ability/feat.

Dude, you're missing the point - anyone can find and throw a badger in Hero System.

With a Throwing Badger power, you don't have to look for one first and you have a potentially infinite supply of badgers (depending on the SFX of the power).

Quote from: FrankTrollman;471099I don't entirley agree, but there is a kernel of truth to that.

Champions dwells too much on the combat mechanics and it leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics, or the almost insultingly almost insultingly simplistic mechanics of "roll 3d6 under your stealth threshold to sneak into the enemy base".

That said, the game lets me make pretty much any power set I want and puts numbers on super strength that I can put into physics equations. So as a launch point for magical teaparty it's really good.

-Frank

Once again, your information is inaccurate - Hero System has no "tea party" mechanics; rules questions are not "talked out".

Let me quote from the actual rules:

"The 6E rules often use the phrase, “in the GM’s discretion,” meaning the GM has authority to allow an optional rule, choose between two rules, or the like. The intent there is to bring to the reader’s specific attention one of the key philosophies of the HERO System, which is that the GM can change any rule as he sees fit."

-

"While it’s usually safe to assume that something which isn’t forbidden is allowed, the final decision is always up to the GM. If he doesn’t want to interpret or use the rules the way you want to, his decision governs."

And while it's entirely possible a GM would just ask for a Stealth roll to get into an enemy base, it's equally as possible a 3.5e D&D GM could ask for both a Hide and Move Silently roll to sneak into a monster lair.

Of course, any GM that simplifies it that far is probably not that good a GM.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;471099Champions [...] leaves most of the rest of the game to either talking it out via magical princess dressup teaparty mechanics[...]

Okay, that description made me LOL.

A lot of games do that, sure, but I was thinking it over and I can't think of any obvious areas where Champions does this.  Can you point to anything in particular?

Quote from: NarfAnd while it's entirely possible a GM would just ask for a Stealth roll to get into an enemy base, it's equally as possible a 3.5e D&D GM could ask for both a Hide and Move Silently roll to sneak into a monster lair.

Both games have simplistic pass/fail skill mechanics for what would be fairly lengthy and suspenseful scenes in their source fiction.

Quote from: NarfOf course, any GM that simplifies it that far is probably not that good a GM.

I think that's unfair to the GMs, when the game itself provides no rules, advice, or mechanics for anything but "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base".  Champions and D&D up to 3.5 don't have anything like skill challenges.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;471061Good God!  Ten points?  I'm sure there's a cheaper way to buy that!

Yes. Badgers are expensive. Instead take the Hero System rulebook, stick them in a bag and throw them. They should be heavy enough for a ranged killing attack these days. They can't be as expensive as a live badger!

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471159Dude, you're missing the point - anyone can find and throw a badger in Hero System.

With a Throwing Badger power, you don't have to look for one first and you have a potentially infinite supply of badgers (depending on the SFX of the power).

Exactly. Defining it as a SuperPower means that you've got a supply of them, you've practiced at it(you don't need a skill to do it) and all the other mechanics of the system. One of my favorite setups is the classic Gagdeteer like BatMan with a Gadget power pool that can be redefined as needed(with GM approval). I once made up a soldier type character who's Gadget pool was setup to be any Gun that he came across. Every mission, if there was time, I stated what gun or guns he was carrying but during a mission I often switched out whenever we took out bad guys so I could use whatever they carried. One of the benefits of that was that I only had to carry one or two magazines of ammo and let the bad guys supply the rest...

I know I've sounded like I'm championing (HA!) Hero System here, but there's plenty I don't like about it and I don't think it does "everything" well.  I mean, there are people who do anything with any system, and yay for them, but that doesn't mean I want to go through the effort  Example: a dear friend of mine and I got back in touch a number of years ago after an elongated absence from one another.  He (Jeff) feels that Hero 5 should be the End of All RPG Systems.  There's nothing (in his mind) Champions can't do.  Right around this time I was working on some AD&D stuff, my campaigns were rolling (still are), and I was enthusiastically telling him about them and he sort of just cut me off midstride during a conversation and started in on how much better you can "do" AD&D - if you'll only use Hero System! Why, with just a few hours work you can even emulate AD&D's system of classes and levels!

Bleah.

Quote from: daniel_ream;471197I think that's unfair to the GMs, when the game itself provides no rules, advice, or mechanics for anything but "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base".  Champions and D&D up to 3.5 don't have anything like skill challenges.

Yet, somehow, generations of GMs managed to do more than say "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base" without needing the game to have rules for "skill challenges".

In fact, let's do a little example:

"GM: The base is surrounded by 500 meters of barbed wire, with sniper towers every 125 meters. There is no coverage within 1000 meters of the fence. Fortunately, you still have that map of the minefield you bribed a grunt for; hopefully, he's taken the million and left, instead of telling his superiors. They'd probably want a cut, so you're fairly sure he chose the first option.

Now, you still have that Glorious Army truck you got from that firefight a week ago; the bullet holes would be less visible at night. However, you don't have any papers, so you'll have to steal or forge some. Unfortunately, those carry their own risks - Geof the Forger is tied into the criminal underground, so anything you order will be known by the area's Mob Boss within five minutes of you leaving. And whether you hit the Commissioner, one of the incoming supply trucks or raid that outpost thirty miles back, chances are someone will at least get a radio message out.

Or, you could sneak across the minefield and count on speed and confusion to get in and out right now. In which case, I've got a combat scenario prepared."

Now, you could say that's a "skill challenge" - Except you'd be wrong. That's strategy, tactics, logistics, combat - All done in-game. A dynamic situation in which the characters actual actions, moderated by dice rolls, determine the results. Role-play, not reducing a challenge down to a series of dice rolls.

And, if that's honestly not the kind of game you've been playing - If your GM's honestly reduce complex challenges down to single dice rolls - then I'm sorry you've had bad GM's.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;471211I know I've sounded like I'm championing (HA!) Hero System here, but there's plenty I don't like about it and I don't think it does "everything" well.  I mean, there are people who do anything with any system, and yay for them, but that doesn't mean I want to go through the effort  Example: a dear friend of mine and I got back in touch a number of years ago after an elongated absence from one another.  He (Jeff) feels that Hero 5 should be the End of All RPG Systems.  There's nothing (in his mind) Champions can't do.  Right around this time I was working on some AD&D stuff, my campaigns were rolling (still are), and I was enthusiastically telling him about them and he sort of just cut me off midstride during a conversation and started in on how much better you can "do" AD&D - if you'll only use Hero System! Why, with just a few hours work you can even emulate AD&D's system of classes and levels!

Bleah.

I'm sorry to hear your friend cut you off. That's just rude.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;471213Yet, somehow, generations of GMs managed to do more than say "roll Stealth to infiltrate the base" without needing the game to have rules for "skill challenges".

In fact, let's do a little example:

"GM: The base is surrounded by 500 meters of barbed wire, with sniper towers every 125 meters. There is no coverage within 1000 meters of the fence. Fortunately, you still have that map of the minefield you bribed a grunt for; hopefully, he's taken the million and left, instead of telling his superiors. They'd probably want a cut, so you're fairly sure he chose the first option.

Now, you still have that Glorious Army truck you got from that firefight a week ago; the bullet holes would be less visible at night. However, you don't have any papers, so you'll have to steal or forge some. Unfortunately, those carry their own risks - Geof the Forger is tied into the criminal underground, so anything you order will be known by the area's Mob Boss within five minutes of you leaving. And whether you hit the Commissioner, one of the incoming supply trucks or raid that outpost thirty miles back, chances are someone will at least get a radio message out.

Or, you could sneak across the minefield and count on speed and confusion to get in and out right now. In which case, I've got a combat scenario prepared."

Now, you could say that's a "skill challenge" - Except you'd be wrong. That's strategy, tactics, logistics, combat - All done in-game. A dynamic situation in which the characters actual actions, moderated by dice rolls, determine the results. Role-play, not reducing a challenge down to a series of dice rolls.

And, if that's honestly not the kind of game you've been playing - If your GM's honestly reduce complex challenges down to single dice rolls - then I'm sorry you've had bad GM's.

...

I want your man-baby's!

(seriously good Narf. Wish I could give you +1 for that.)