...Savage Worlds with all the switches on for high-action pulp?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;467413I don't know whether my ideas are, or require, or would benefit, from a story-flow- centric experience.

It does require a pulpy/cinematic ruleset - ie characters that can, to coin a phrase, take a licking and keep on ticking (almost the way The Spirit can), as well as have access to the means to perform stunts of a relatively low level (ie not straight up superpowers), as well as a system able to handle gadgets.

Have you considered a Feng Shui hack? You'd have to write the rules if you wanted them stand alone (Feng Shui is not open content), but they wouldn't have to be different (Feng Shui is not particularly complex). You put together a new set of shticks and go forward with whatever genre conventions and archetypes you want to support.

That would probably be the way to go if you wanted a discreet action-centric experience from your ruleset. It's a fast and loose system that rewards over the top action and blowing away mooks in copious numbers, but individual actions succeed or fail depending upon the immediate results of dice and have directly analogous consequences. You have to be careful with that though, because depending on the players, having direct consequences from action results can lead to player caution, which may be out-of-genre for wha you are trying to do.

I'd need more information about your setting and proposed storytelling experience though.

-Frank

Well the ultimate goal is for something that I can sell, this makes Savage Worlds a more difficult proposition, and also Feng Shui - as you say not being open source - problematic.

I must say though, while I understand your analyses thus far - player caution has never been something i've seen in any FS game i've experienced.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;467424Well the ultimate goal is for something that I can sell, this makes Savage Worlds a more difficult proposition, and also Feng Shui - as you say not being open source - problematic.

I must say though, while I understand your analyses thus far - player caution has never been something i've seen in any FS game i've experienced.

That is because Feng Shui is suitable primarily for one-shots and the character advancement system is universally agreed upon to be ass. Therefore, players treat their characters like pregen con game characters and throw caution to the wind.

If you actually made a campaign of it, players would exercise caution and restraint when things looked dangerous.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467429That is because Feng Shui is suitable primarily for one-shots and the character advancement system is universally agreed upon to be ass. Therefore, players treat their characters like pregen con game characters and throw caution to the wind.

If you actually made a campaign of it, players would exercise caution and restraint when things looked dangerous.

-Frank

Interesting. I would never have thought characters in FS would need some kind of Fate point option to take the edge off. However i've never played long term.

The gameplay experience I seek is something that replicates the kind of action and drama seen in comics like the Nevermen, which is the template for the kind of game, and specifically, the kind of characters the game involves. We are talking high flying pulp action - but with human (human + gadgets - more like Batman than Doc Savage, as is my udnerstanding ot e character, or the Shadow) constraints. Well, to a degree.

The sort of setting where a character is more likley to lose his fedora than his life as a sign of drama.

Feng Shui, in all other respects, is a very good fit. Though i've never understood why they bothered with the secondary attributes which, aothough some have a function, seem really to be an unnecessary complication.

In Feng Shui, the attributes are basically unnecessary. The fact that you ever make a test based on an attribute instead of a skill pushes characters off the random number generator compared to each other.

Set Fortune Points, Toughness, and Shots per scene by archetype, and slap literally every single other thing on a skill. Give characters an "Other Stuff" skill that is their default go-to (and yes, it is acceptable to have a Bard archetype whose "Other Stuff" skill is really high). And then you're golden.

As for whether a plot affecting power like FATE points is necessary for Feng Shui, I would argue that it is not. The level of caution that players would equilibriate to in a long running campaign is acceptable to me. Whether it is for you or not is up to your sensibilities. I can't answer it for you.

-Frank

Yes, i've never been a fan of redundant attributes in systems. FS is an old system really, from the early 90's. My preference has always been a set of stats that encompass everything, rather than attributes and skills. Thus:
Combat – fighting and self defence.
Command – presence and charisma.
Operator – the ability to pilot vehicles of any kind.
Gear – skill with engineering, repair and the general application of technology.
Might – physical conditioning, fitness and endurance.
Medical – the ability to apply first aid and undertake surgery.
Science – knowledge of intellectual and academic disciplines.
Reflexes – dexterity and physical alertness.
Streetwise – urban savvy and city smarts.
Awareness – strength of perception, observation and awareness of surroundings.
Possibly using Science for Medical with the help of a given archetype and it's own abilities, and instead having Combat subdivide into Fighting (melee) and Shooting (not melee).
It's also a choice influenced by the old GW Judge Dredd game which had a stat block, similar to how Warhammer Fantasy did things, comprising skills, such as Med Skill, Tech Skill.

Quote from: The Butcher;467409But if the player rolls a -5, not even Tagging two Aspects at once (is that even legal?) will save Spidey's ass. So I feel there is some (admittedly, not huge) margin for failure, at least if you use 1d6-1d6 (4dF is a different story).

Yes, it's legal. But I have often found myself without enough appropriate aspects to spend FP on in order to succeed depending upon the nature of the contest. Not to mention that not all rolls are against a static difficulty, and sometimes the opposition has FP to spend as well.

QuoteBased on my own experience with FATE 3.0, this is spot on.

me too.

Okay, this part?

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467370So for example: Spiderman is jumping across a chasm, which may well call for a roll. But Peter Parker's player has already determined that he will barely catch himself on the other end and dramatically pull himself up. If the roll comes up very well, he can activate negative traits like "is a teenager" or "written by JMS" to gain FATE Points. In that case, the player can skip the bit where he gets harassed by triple-J (which would otherwise refill his Fate Points). On the other hand, if he rolls poorly, he'll need to spend FATE on it to activate some positive traits like "Spider Strength" or "Web Powers" to not miss the jump. And the results of that are that he needs to recover more FATE points later in the adventure so he needs to not only sit through the Triple-J tirade, he also needs to have his trustworthiness called into question by Mary Jane or Aunt May.
-Frank

Yeah, that's not how Fate works. Like, at all. That whole "player determines how much he wants to succeed by" thing is utterly wrong.

Here's how it actually works:
Spidey wants to jump between two buildings. He makes a skill roll and, if he misses, can spend his Fate points to invoke Aspects like "Acrobatic" or "Does whatever a spider can" to get bonuses after he rolls, or to reroll if he really screwed up the jumping roll. As long as he gets a non-negative result overall, he gets across. If he only made it by a point or two, then the GM might say that he just made it. But the player doesn't get to say what happens one way or the other until after the dice are rolled, just like every other RPG out there.

Of course, unless he's chasing someone or there's a trap or something, he shouldn't be rolling anyway. Don't roll dice if failure wouldn't really mean anything.

In order to gain Fate points, he has to have his negative Aspects work against him in a scene. He wants to go meet Mary Jane on a date, but the GM decides that JJJ wants him to go cover some media even. The GM is compelling his "Freelancer for the Bugle" Aspect to make Pete miss his date. If Peter takes the Fate point, then he has to play out the scene where he blows off MJ, but he gets a point for it. Otherwise, he has to pay out a point of his own, but pissing off JJJ will probably have repercussions anyway.

Good example of invoking an Aspect for a reroll. Your example of a Compel, while perfectly orthodox and correct I struggle with but I will start a different thread not to derail the conversation.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;467370The question of should you use FATE is a separate one. Characters in FATE behave basically like characters in Game of Thrones. Characters bumble through the plot being held back at every turn by their prejudices and limitations to win or lose in a sudden and often unexpected turn of events. It's a harm reduction system, in which players basically get to state what happens as a result of any action, and the actual rolls determine how often the player is expected to mandate good or bad results for their own character.

So for example: Spiderman is jumping across a chasm, which may well call for a roll. But Peter Parker's player has already determined that he will barely catch himself on the other end and dramatically pull himself up. If the roll comes up very well, he can activate negative traits like "is a teenager" or "written by JMS" to gain FATE Points. In that case, the player can skip the bit where he gets harassed by triple-J (which would otherwise refill his Fate Points). On the other hand, if he rolls poorly, he'll need to spend FATE on it to activate some positive traits like "Spider Strength" or "Web Powers" to not miss the jump. And the results of that are that he needs to recover more FATE points later in the adventure so he needs to not only sit through the Triple-J tirade, he also needs to have his trustworthiness called into question by Mary Jane or Aunt May.

It works for a very story-flow-centric cooperative storytelling experience. If you get super concerned about mechanics being "associated", then this is not for you.

I just have to say, that bears no resemblance whatsoever to how my group plays FATE, at least.

RPGPundit

I'm not sure how to proceed.

What is nice, I suppose, for a designer is that using the aspect system means leaving the job of creating them up to the player. I don't then have to devise a concise list for players to choose from.

That does feel like a bit of a cop out though.

It's important to give player characters the requisite means to do cool stuff. This is a setting where characters can and should act heroically, with some measure of pulp like bravado and so the rules need to simulate that in terms of providing characters with the right moves (which potentially could be done entirely with aspects) as well as rules that emulate those conventions. The characters are no more super powered than batman and also rely on gadgets (though not capes and cowls).

So now I find myself trying to come up with a list of such moves and abilities, but also thinking 'is this really the best way to proceed?'. Is there no better way than a list of 'kewl powerz' to choose from, or is the alternative rather bland.