Outside of James Raggi's pretentions, that is?

I just finished reviewing LotFP (grindhouse edition), you can find that over in the reviews forum or on my blog.  In short, it was a spectacular iteration of the D&D mechanic, brilliant.  Like I said in the review, it was "OD&D's answer to WFRP".

I loved it.

But what I didn't love about it was the whole "weird fantasy" idea.  Raggi tried to explain something he considers weird fantasy, which he seems to be pretty explicit doesn't just mean cthulhuesque shit (though it includes plenty of that), or just pulp adventure (though it includes plenty of that), or just suspense (though it includes some of that too),  or gore/violent horror (though it has plenty of that too) or grotesquerie for its own sake (though again, tons of that shit, especially in the illustrations).

So what the fuck does it mean then, if not just "James Raggi's personal favorite combination of all of the above, with a bunch of pretentious essay writing to justify it"?

Seriously, this is one case where he shouldn't have fucking told me, he should have SHOWN me.  

And ultimately, I'm still left feeling like even if he had, it would not actually "be" anything that you can't already incorporate into the broad umbrella category of "Cthulhu Mythos-esque", and I'm quite certain that the stylistic concept is in no way an essential element of the LotFP game itself, as in the mechanics.

RPGPundit

Well, I think there are antecedents to that "weird fantasy" subgenre, or at least to the impression I get of it. Solomon Kane, Averoigne, Jirel of Joiry, maybe campbell's Ryre stories seem to tie into a similar conceptual thread that's not really new; the main divergence from Raggi seems to be how explicit he is about gore.

Also, though I don't really know if there is much to it, 3/4 of the writers that came to mind are from the US half of anglophone fantasy. If there are commonalities between the WF "style" and the WH style maybe it's what you get if you excise the Tolkien and Moorcock and knit together the gristle.

Yes, Weird Fantasy is a thing outside of Cthulhu pastiche.  Lord Dunsany's fiction, for example.  Or Clive Baker's Weaveworld, for a more modern example.

Quote from: misterguignol;465584Yes, Weird Fantasy is a thing outside of Cthulhu pastiche.  Lord Dunsany's fiction, for example.  Or Clive Baker's Weaveworld, for a more modern example.

Well, both are weird, but I don't think either are weird in the sense that LOTFP is trying to convey. Stuff like Time and the Gods seems pretty at odds with that flame princes sensibility to me.

Maybe Clarke Ashton Smith is the best representative?
I haven't read his Averoigne stuff, but I have read some of the Zothique stories, which are not really Cthulhu-esque. They're more like Conan with more more horror, more sex, and more grotesquerie.
Try this:
http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/15/the-black-abbot-of-puthuum

Or for something truly repulsive (at least to me):

http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/76/the-garden-of-adompha

Quote from: Cole;465586Well, both are weird, but I don't think either are weird in the sense that LOTFP is trying to convey. Stuff like Time and the Gods seems pretty at odds with that flame princes sensibility to me.

That is quite possibly true, but the literary definition of "Weird Fantasy" is a pretty broad umbrella.

Quote from: two_fishes;465587Maybe Clarke Ashton Smith is the best representative?
I haven't read his Averoigne stuff, but I have read some of the Zothique stories, which are not really Cthulhu-esque. They're more like Conan with more more horror, more sex, and more grotesquerie.
Try this:
http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/15/the-black-abbot-of-puthuum

Or for something truly repulsive (at least to me):

http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/76/the-garden-of-adompha

The Averoigne stories are pretty great. They're set in this sort of gothic symbolist medieval france. But the Zothique series are my favorite; that is a great, wondeful/awful example. Trivia - Greyhawk's Tharizdun is a homage to the Thasaidon mentioned there.

Quote from: misterguignol;465588That is quite possibly true, but the literary definition of "Weird Fantasy" is a pretty broad umbrella.

I don't mean to argue that, I agree with you. I'm just talking about weird fantasy in the sense JR seems to be using it, since that's what I took pundit to be talking about in this context.

Edit: That is, I took Pundit's question to be "is the kind of world Raggi depicting something that was ever actually out there in fantasy, or is it just a bizarre custom blend that's not recognizable elsewhere."

Quote from: Cole;465591I don't mean to argue that, I agree with you. I'm just talking about weird fantasy in the sense JR seems to be using it, since that's what I took pundit to be talking about in this context.

Edit: That is, I took Pundit's question to be "is the kind of world Raggi depicting something that was ever actually out there in fantasy, or is it just a bizarre custom blend that's not recognizable elsewhere."

Yeah, I think we're in agreement here.  The thing is that Weird Fantasy has always been a product of "disparate things the author thinks is cool, each with that crucial balance between the mundane and the weird"; in that sense, I think Raggi's vision of Weird Fantasy is right in line with the literary tradition that values synthesis over clear definition.

I don't think he meant LotFP to stand as the definitive statement about Weird Fantasy...it's his version of it via old-school D&D.  In my own thread on this site I give my own spins on what Weird Fantasy could entail by merging what Raggi wrote and my own literary and cultural interests.  It's a big sandbox to play in, which is good for gaming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_theorem

I suspect it's Raggi's personal blend of a lot of stuff. I don't begrudge him that.

I'd say that for me, Weird Fantasy is grand guignol and estrangement with fantasy trappings.

"Seriously, this is one case where he shouldn't have fucking told me, he should have SHOWN me."

Show instead of tell in this case would mean writing some original fiction, right?  Can't we all agree that the less of that in an RPG, the better?

I think it's another of those 'know it when I see it' things... hard to pin down and maybe easier to describe by pointing out what it is not... but it's not something Raggi made up.
It's less concerned with being 'fantasy' vs. 'science fiction' vs. 'horror'... so wallows happily wherever it likes.

The best representatives of "weird fantasy" IMO are Dunsany's Gods of Pegana, Lovecraft's Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, Smith's story cycles (Averoigne and Hyperborea are the most action-heavy, and hence game-relevant) and Catherine L. Moore's Jirel/Northwest stories. All of these subgenres merge together to an extent, so there are no exact boundaries to separate weird fantasy from sword and sorcery from sword and planet. Hell, one story could be all of them simultaneously.

Is the LotFP RPG "weird fantasy"? I don't own it and don't intend to, so I can't tell for sure. The modules, which I like, have some of the elements, but as it has been said, their approach is more visceral, more physical - weird fantasy as I wrote about it above tends to be a bit detached.

Quote from: Esgaldil;465594"Seriously, this is one case where he shouldn't have fucking told me, he should have SHOWN me."

Show instead of tell in this case would mean writing some original fiction, right?  Can't we all agree that the less of that in an RPG, the better?

Fiction?! Fuck NO.

What I mean is that instead of essays and descriptions, he should have had more random tables, items, encounters,  monsters, etc.  "Implied Setting": THAT is how you "show" a style/genre in an RPG, not fucking game fiction.

RPGPundit

I have this theory where a genre or sub genre only really begins existence when it is labeled as such.

Those that existed before the label were something else that defied catagorisation.