Quote from: brettmb;451218I think RPGs were very educational back in the day, precisely because of the calculations in Traveller, 2300AD, and a few other games. I don't think the same can be said of games these days

Brought to mind M.J. Hibbett and the Validators' "Hey Hey 16k"

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We bought it to help with your homework
And the household accounts
If your dad ever works it all out
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Which in turn reminded me of Elite and Mercenary, mmm. I've got a remake of the former that takes advantage of more modern hardware.

My favourite Trav game was the one where I was running it for three people - an engineer / computer programmer, a computer programmer, and a designer / economist. They had an automated spreadsheet calculating the cost/ton of everything - everything - they were hauling that was updated whenever I randomly generated commodity prices for the system they'd entered into.

I remember someone calculating the marginal costs for nerve gas vs. alien pornography as they swung out towards a waterworld where revanchist alien dolphin guerillas were trying to drive humanity off planet.

Unfortunately, the game ended when they were killed by cyborg priests for violently resisting the installation of piety neuro-circuits.

Hah, that's cool, Pseudoephedrine.

Keith Laumer's "Retief of the CDT" stories had some pretty funny adventure setups.

Really, the selection of fiction that inspired Traveller, like that which inspired D&D -- some overlaps there! -- probably accounts for part of its appeal for those of us who were into some of the same stuff at the time or are now.

I think Star Frontiers had a younger generation in mind, one with different touchstones such as "Star Wars".

A few years along from the George Lucas movie hit, and a lot more material borrowed from the little hamlet of SF Fandom was, in altered form, part of the much bigger scene of truly popular culture.

Quote from: David Johansen;451195errr...grade eight and a calculator that does square roots maybe...at the very worst.

Even though I had saved up my lawn mowing money to get a TI-30--that did roots and logs and trig and everything!!--my pop insisted that I sit down with him and figure out how to work a slide rule. For that day when all the batteries stopped working, I guess. So we ran out of homework one night and I proposed to do a little Traveller math. My pop did not think rpgs were from the devil, but he didn't have much use for them, either. He dutifully endured a few calculations for fun.

About a week later, I caught him with Book 2, designing a subsidized merchant. You would've thought I caught him with a porno.
I have awesome folks.

You know--that TI-30 still works, too.

Quote from: David Johansen;451195errr...grade eight and a calculator that does square roots maybe...at the very worst.

Bah.  You show me someone who's prepared to do those calculations for the sake of a game, and I'll show you someone who's got a degree and a spreadsheet.

Okay, or possibly in a few cases, someone who was perfectly capable of getting a degree but made a lifestyle choice not to.

My point is that dumb people might be able to do those calculations with electronic assistance, but they wouldn't do them for fun.

Quote from: P&P;451417Bah.  You show me someone who's prepared to do those calculations for the sake of a game, and I'll show you someone who's got a degree and a spreadsheet.

Okay, or possibly in a few cases, someone who was perfectly capable of getting a degree but made a lifestyle choice not to.

My point is that dumb people might be able to do those calculations with electronic assistance, but they wouldn't do them for fun.

I cant' agree with that. I used to do calculations like that when I was 16 for RPGs and enjoyed it. These days, I wouldn't want to bother, but back then, it was fun.

Quote from: brettmb;451423I cant' agree with that. I used to do calculations like that when I was 16 for RPGs and enjoyed it. These days, I wouldn't want to bother, but back then, it was fun.

Shhh...he needs to feel superior to the "dumb" people.

I don't get how that constitutes disagreeing.

I said, "Only people in category X would do Y for fun."

Brettmb said, "I used to do Y for fun but I don't any more".

QuoteYou show me someone who's prepared to do those calculations for the sake of a game, and I'll show you someone who's got a degree and a spreadsheet.

I didn't have a degree, nor did I have a spreadsheet.

QuoteOkay, or possibly in a few cases, someone who was perfectly capable of getting a degree but made a lifestyle choice not to.

I was 16 - a degree was not an option at the time.

QuoteMy point is that dumb people might be able to do those calculations with electronic assistance, but they wouldn't do them for fun.

Why not?

QuoteI don't get how that constitutes disagreeing.

Seems obvious to me.

heh, no degree here and honestly sometimes I think that makes me more willing to play complex number heavy games.  The accountants I know want rules lite narrativist stuff.

Hmm. I guess I couldn't have played Traveler after all, since I was a college dropout and the game is clearly only for super geniuses of Hawking-like proportions.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;451490Hmm. I guess I couldn't have played Traveler after all, since I was a college dropout and the game is clearly only for super geniuses of Hawking-like proportions.

You get bonus points if you're a quadriplegic with your own artificial voice plug-in.

1)Starships rock + 1)Math is cool = 2) Traveller is awesome.
See? Math isn't so hard.

Math is not cool, but Traveler doesn't need it as much as people make out.  I certainly never used it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: P&P;451417Bah.  You show me someone who's prepared to do those calculations for the sake of a game, and I'll show you someone who's got a degree and a spreadsheet.

Okay, or possibly in a few cases, someone who was perfectly capable of getting a degree but made a lifestyle choice not to.

My point is that dumb people might be able to do those calculations with electronic assistance, but they wouldn't do them for fun.

You know there was a really smart bloke from Britain on TED that gave a nice talk about how the West is lagging behind in mathematics and the sciences.  His reasoning being that we focus too much on routine calculation by hand and do not take advantage of computers.  In math, plugging in numbers is trivial and boring.  The concepts behind it are what are interesting.  Using calculators, computers, and other automated forms of calculation allow us to focus on the more important bits of math.  Conceptual learning is by far the most important part of academic mathematics.  Plus, plenty of people get degrees in math and never do anything substantial with it (teach, maybe).

Any "idiot" can calculate what's essentially "basic" physics.  It doesn't take long at all and I don't think intelligence (above a certain threshold) has anything to do with doing it for fun.  I certainly am not the most mathematically capable person out of my group of friends, but I still enjoy physics and whatnot.  Conversely, my friends who are more mathematically capable don't necessarily like doing calculations for the sake of calculating, especially for a game.