Quote from: danbuter;450948Aaahh! How can you recommend T4 to anyone?

The only T4 book worth anything is Milieu 0 (and it's pretty good).

Well, first off it's got the best version of Traveller character generation.  T5 comes close but loses some of the essential simplicity of Traveller character generation and thus falters.

Why?  Well, first off there's some background skills, and then you can go to school, and then there's a dozen nicely done careers that roll a few of the more questionable ones from Citizens of the Imperium into broader careers.  You get one skill per year so characters can be quite competent.

Then there's the combat system, which I'll admit is a mixed blessing the basic handling of armor penetration is good but the melee and dodge pools are a bit odd if no more complex than the full strength and weakened blows rules from CT.

Ship to ship combat is very simplified, drawing stats from Battle Rider, as near as I can figure.  You have alblative armor and structure points and when
they're gone so is your ship.

Sure there's errors, but you know what?  The oft lauded Mega Traveller had erratta that didn't see print until the year it went out of print.

Really I suspect the art and some of the truly terrible later supplements are the source of most of the complaints.  Well, and supplement 1, starships, which was...not very good at all, no not good at all.

Quote from: David JohansenSure there's errors, but you know what? The oft lauded Mega Traveller had erratta that didn't see print until the year it went out of print.

That I reckoned a new low, at least for a firm of GDW's caliber. I don't know where it's "oft lauded". I would be more inclined to cite it as an object lesson than to hold it up as a notably good example of game development.

At least at the time, T4 seemed to me worse. I haven't gone through the books I bought (and later regretted buying) in years. Maybe the attention Imperium Games paid to illustrations highlighted the impression of style over substance.

I felt ripped off. That unfinished product should not, I thought, have gone out the door. Maybe Marc and company needed money right away to pay the illustrators?

Mongoose has a reputation for lack of blind testing and editing, but I have not heard this about its Traveller line.

Thanks for the input, guys.

I've been doing some independent reading on the side...the differences in melee and such I'm not too concerned with (really, it's all the same to me in a scifi game unless you're going for a full-on tactical squad type deal), but the starship combat differences were interesting.  Vector combat seems really cool (especially when you're taking gravity wells and other things into consideration), but at the same time I'm not much of a miniatures guy so I'm not sure how much I'd like it in actual play with all of the bits you'd need, compared to Mongoose's (I think?) linear range combat.  One's really wargamey, the other seems like it would require a lot of narration on the part of the GM to make it more interesting.

Also, the CT details regarding interplanetary travel and jumping (calculating safe jump distances, the whole "turnaround" and deceleration bit) made the inner physics geek in me squee, even if it is just there for flavor.

Mongoose's version definitely seems streamlined, but CT has lots of neat bits as well.  Although it seems like it would be fairly easy to mesh cool bits from one to the other without much trouble.

Starter Traveller (a version of CT) features range band-based starship combat, which does away with the need for miniatures.  It's the system I use in my games for ship combats, which tend to be fairly rare in the games I run.

Traveller star ship combats tend to be harsh and the PCs don't generally have top notch firepower.  One nice thing about T4 is the alblative damage made ships a little more durable.

Anyhow, all this got me to dig out my T4 stuff today.  I still love it.  The handling of penetration and damage is simple and effective.  Central Supply Catelog and Emperor's Arsenal are the two best books on their topics in Traveller's history thanks to Greg Porter of BRTC fame.

Yeah, it was T4 that convinced me that I'm not overly fond of Traveller fans.

I ended up feeling quite impressed by mongoose trav.

RPGPundit

As was mentioned earlier, MGT serves a variety of settings (Judge Dredd, Hammers Slammers, Strontium Dog), but they also include a variety of "non-Traveller" technology in the rules expansions and boy do the bitter tears flow on CotI.  If you're sick of 1960-era computers and want a sci-fi game with robots, cybernetics, and plasma weapons instead of "Space Marines" armed with SMG's and a Cutlass, then MGT is for you.

CT is like D&D, it's practically become its own genre.  
MGT makes it easier to make YTU (your traveller universe).

However, Traveller is also a lot like OD&D or BRP in that you can easily add or remove stuff, in that way, MGT keeps the old-school sensibilities of CT even if they have, god forbid, given you the tools to create 40k with the MGT ruleset.  So...get both.

Me, too.  I found it to be a 'cleaning  up' of Classic Traveller.  Still uses a 2d6 curve, but now with a unified skill mechanic.  I do like the ship shares mechanic as well as the associations between characters before the campaign begins.  I also like the skill packages, it ensures that with random skill generation a given party will have the basic information necessary to carry out the basic functions required of the campaign type.

  We're actually considering using MongTrav over A Time of War for our Battletech campaign as it's simpler.

Guess I'll be sticking with MongTrav, then, as I plan to hack it a bit to do a solar system campaign, maybe something bounty-hunter-ish like Cowboy Bebop.  The less assumptions there are about what particular setting the GM will be using, the better.

Not meaning at all to knock MongTrav, I take issue with some claims concerning CT.

Quote from: CRKrueger;451224If you're sick of 1960-era computers

This always cracks me up, as presumably whoever is making this claim knows just how big a computer installation ought to be in order to take a ship though "jump space" -- in addition to whatever other services it may provide the crew and passengers. Is the supposed far-future network hardware expert the guy who remodeled his home to look like the starship from "Star Trek The Next Generation"?

There's no point of reference in terms of actual specs until MegaTraveller. Even then, I suppose (not having the books handy) that an assessment of starship installations based on

(A) present day naval ships
and
(B) even more input and output devices per person at higher tech levels

might not look silly at all. For that matter, I have no idea what the stats are in Mongoose Traveller.

The TL 11  "hand computer" in CT Book 3 weighs 500 g. An iPhone 4 weighs 137  g, an iPad 2nd Generation 600 g.

The bulk of many computer systems today is in interface devices such as (for interaction with humans) video displays. Screens and buttons can get only so small before they cease to be convenient, and for some people many cell phones have already crossed that threshold.

Quoteand want a sci-fi game with robots

Book 8, Robots.

Quotecybernetics

"The interdisciplinary study of the structure of regulatory systems"? There's no reason not to have it figure in CT; Hari Seldon's psychohistory is probably a branch.

Quoteand plasma weapons

Book 4, Mercenary (which also has the next step, fusion guns).

How is the wielder not fried by radiation? Well, IIRC the weapon is "man portable" only with mechanized battle dress, and probably artificial-gravity fields have something to do with it. Basically, this -- like the anti-gravity air/raft and maneuver drives -- seems like something that has been just too popular a notion to let lack of justification get in the way.

QuoteCT is like D&D, it's practically become its own genre.

I think you're mainly talking about the Third Imperium setting, the significance of which in some quarters becomes pretty evident when one considers such constructions as "GURPS Traveller" and "Traveller d20".

Although the emerging picture in the CT era, pieced together in Adventures and some Supplements (especially the two Library Data volumes) and the Aliens books, certainly acquired a lot of fans, I think it was really MegaTraveller that explicitly made the equation with the setting by including it in the basic rules books. Then, it offered continuity of sorts with "The New Era".

Quote from: Phillip;451293Not meaning at all to knock MongTrav, I take issue with some claims concerning CT.

Ditto on that... A unified skills mechanic was already available for CT fans long before it was added to MongTrav. I have an article from Stellar Reaches magazine from the spring of 2006 outlining a d20 conversion of the BITS task resolution system. The British Isles Traveller Support founded by Andy Lilly in 1995 published writers guidelines for a unified task resolution mechanic in 1999 that was widely adopted for use in home games... I have my original notes that I downloaded on this even earlier from 2000-2001.

Having not seen Mongtrav, I would venture a guess that Mongoose in usual fashion simply bought rights to use the mechanic, adapted the mechanic, or adopted a similar mechanic. They deserve no credit for reinventing the wheel.

Quote from: Phillip;451293This always cracks me up, as presumably whoever is making this claim knows just how big a computer installation ought to be in order to take a ship though "jump space" -- in addition to whatever other services it may provide the crew and passengers. Is the supposed far-future network hardware expert the guy who remodeled his home to look like the starship from "Star Trek The Next Generation"?

There's no point of reference in terms of actual specs until MegaTraveller. Even then, I suppose (not having the books handy) that an assessment of starship installations based on

(A) present day naval ships
and
(B) even more input and output devices per person at higher tech levels

You are of course, entirely correct on this. I just get so tired of the same old chestnut getting trotted out, it hardly gets a rise out of me anymore.

But to back you up, my day job is working on computer systems on naval ships. And the notion that keeps getting parroted by the likes of CRKrueger has been proven wrong after 50 years. I program a small "program", which is really an array of connected applications in a multi-processor cage, with a bunch of specialized peripherals, some of which don't cotton well to Moore's law. This technology that can put an old maiframe in my laptop has somehow failed to put my job in a laptop.

And mine is just one small application, small compared to the likes of the Aegis weapon system. Now imagine how much more complex a task like three dimensional weapon targeting systems, jump drives, and detailed files on multiple worlds might be. Tasks that, yes, evolving computer science will help us deal with, but it's not going to handwave it all away and put your ships computerized systems in a nutshell.

So when some snotty nosed young wannabe CompSci expert sees the word "program" and decides that running his paint program is the same order of complexity as a jump drive "program", he's not even close to making a reasonable comparison.

Quote from: GameDaddy;451298Ditto on that... A unified skills mechanic was already available for CT fans long before it was added to MongTrav. I have an article from Stellar Reaches magazine from the spring of 2006 outlining a d20 conversion of the BITS task resolution system. The British Isles Traveller Support founded by Andy Lilly in 1995 published writers guidelines for a unified task resolution mechanic in 1999 that was widely adopted for use in home games... I have my original notes that I downloaded on this even earlier from 2000-2001.

Well, MegaTraveller had one in the 87, and it was even derived from one DGP put in their magazine for DGP, so at least a year or two before that.

But Mongoose's authors are largely brits, so you could be right.

QuoteHaving not seen Mongtrav, I would venture a guess that Mongoose in usual fashion simply bought rights to use the mechanic, adapted the mechanic, or adopted a similar mechanic. They deserve no credit for reinventing the wheel.

Eh, they were repackaging a classic game, I don't think they were out for originality. But I'll stand by the notion that a unified system is better than an array of ad hoc skill checks. It's not the first to do it, no. But the OP asked what the difference between CT and MongT is, and that's a central one. So there you go.

The unified system was the first objection prospective Traveller players raised back when I had just got the brand new MegaTraveller set. "Fine, guys, I can just ignore it!" I said.

They had plenty of other complaints, though, so it was back to the little black books.

Real life and computer installation design --

Offhand Googling after mention of server farms and volume quickly got me this. Snippets:

Quote from: Mavus72 units max, with generally no more than 1/3 running at one time or 24 units.

Build density; 1 unit per 50 cubit feet. However on average, 1 active unit per 150 cubit feet.


Air exchange in entire server room every 30 seconds.


No hard cooling, only fans and design.

The rising heat will have large openings like 2 feet by 20 feet with screens and retractable covering when it is more cool outside. Industrial fans blow in from bottom to feed front wall of servers. The volume of air above top server rack height is 10 feet more up and sports an additional 1400 cubic feet ofadjoining high space with generous high exit windows. If air pressure proves insufficient I can post industrial fans 12 feet up to aggressively blow out air.

Quote from: WebdudeYou may want a couple of those little 3-ton standalone cooler units "just in case". As long as you have air replacement for what is going out the window, you should be good. You dont want to end up with the "sucking on a coke bottle" concept and the fans unable to blow out enough air because of it..

I think those were supposed to be cubic feet, unless Mavus's real name is Noah.

72 x 50 cu. ft. = 3600 cu. ft. for the racks in this "small data center".

Book 2 starship computer installations range from 14 cubic meters (about 494 cubic feet) to 9 times that, or about 4450 cubic feet. There's nothing in the book (that I recall) specifying that's the central servers alone. A computer system needs room for terminals and wiring and so on as well.

A space computer system needs to be radiation hardened, too. The web server's big concern suggests another kind of radiation problem, though.

Remember the advertising line for the Alien movie? "In space, no one can hear you scream."

Why not?

No air, that's why not. No air, no convection.

Now you know why your star cruiser has fins. It's all about radiation, baby, keeping you cool.

After all that is superficialities.
What MongoTrav lacks is attention to detail and rigorousness. And this, my friends, poisons the games people run with it. It is a thought crime.
Regarding superficialities, Megatraveller has been out since when?